Following CHRB Race Dates Decision, What’s Next For California?

The way California Horse Racing Board (CHRB) chair Greg Ferraro describes it, the now infamous letter in which 1/ST Racing and Gaming appeared to threaten the sale of Santa Anita should the board grant the North its desired 2024 race dates was “a very big mistake” on their part–one that helped sway the board's unanimous decision to side with interests in the Northern half of the state.

“It really put a bad taste in the mouths of board members,” Ferraro said.

Beforehand, Ferraro had anticipated punting a decision on the North's race dates to the following meeting, he said, adding how Belinda Stronach, chairwoman, CEO and president of 1/ST, had called him the day before to “lobby” her position.

Ultimately, however, “the two things that came out to me [from the meeting] was just how much animosity there is towards The Stronach Group in California,” Ferraro said. “And that the letter was the thing that really killed them.”

The granting to the North a 10-week meet–to run at Pleasanton from Oct. 10 to Dec. 15 at the conclusion of this summer's fair meets–heralds quite the dramatic reordering of the operational and political furniture in California racing.

“It might be the most momentous decision the board has made in its history,” said Ferraro. But now the dust has settled somewhat on last week's board's decision, what's next?

“What we have to do now is get the racetrack operators in one room, sit down with them and say, 'okay look, this is the direction we need to go. You can either go voluntarily or the board will force you.' Remember, we control the dates,” said Ferraro.

“Let's sit down and see what we can work out with the calendar for the next year or two, three, to transition to a one circuit,” Ferraro added (more on that single circuit in a bit).

When asked to discuss the situation with a 1/ST representative, company spokesperson Tiffani Steer wrote in an email, “Craig Fravel's comments at the CHRB meeting stand.”

Thoroughbred Owners of California (TOC) president and CEO Bill Nader said for him, the key takeaway from the meeting was the concretizing of important details.

“We all have something now we can measure–I think that's good for the North and it's good for the South,” said Nader. “Trying to define viability or sustainability is difficult when some of it's based on speculation.”

With the vote in, “now [the CARF] have got to go back and address the outstanding points that were raised in the meeting,” said Nader. “We're moving forward, but there's still pieces of the puzzle that need to come together.”

Golden Gate | Vassar Photography

PLANS FOR PLEASANTON

The ambitious plan outlined by the California Association of Racing Fairs (CARF) for its 26-day, 208-race season at Pleasanton presents stakeholders in the North with a set of logistical and bureaucratic hurdles to overcome between now and then, pending CHRB approval of the track's license application at its Aug. 15 meeting.

Upon such approval, the meet is scheduled to run under the auspices of Golden State Racing, a moniker given to differentiate it from CARF's stable of summer fair meets. All told, there will be eight stakes worth a combined $550,000, with some $3.6 million designated for overnight purses. CARF executive director Larry Swartzlander said that these are “not firm numbers yet.”

Among some of the undertakings at Pleasanton these next few months is the installation of some 284 additional auxiliary stalls at a projected maximum cost of $1.5 million, said Swartzlander, with the aim of facilitating around 840 horses.

There are ongoing negotiations with the operators of the golf course situated within Pleasanton's infield to determine how the two entities will coexist. CARF's plan is for no golfing during racing, to limit public use during training hours, and to allow the First Tee community program–a youth golf program–limited access to the infield.

State regulators will likely require a “Notice of Intent” for coverage under an industrial stormwater permit, to be filed before June 2, along with other environmental compliance issues to contend with.

When it comes to discretionary spending number crunching, CARF has stated it has $900,000 in cash reserves, access to a line of credit of up to $4 million from Alameda County Fairgrounds, and that it will arrange for further “lending, grants and donations” as the cost of capital requirements become clearer.

Swartzlander said that an engineer is scheduled to visit Pleasanton in July to assess the facility for a proposed turf course and to provide a cost estimate. At the board meeting, Swartzlander pinned a rough $7 million price tag to that venture.

Currently, once Golden Gate Fields closes its doors on June 9, Santa Rosa will be the only Northern California track with a turf course.

According to Ferraro, several key questions surrounding the issues of everyday operations–“who's running the show”–the agreement with the golf course operators, and that of financial viability remain unanswered, despite the additional details offered up by CARF last Thursday.

“The horse racing board is preparing them a list of questions that we want answered when they come back in August,” said Ferraro. “Staff is working on them right now.”

According to Jerome Hoban, CEO at Alameda County Fairgrounds, the next steps for Pleasanton and CARF concern installing the auxiliary stabling, negotiating a “purse schedule” with the TOC, and developing a licensing agreement “so that it's satisfactory with the CHRB.”

“We're also developing a marketing plan for this meet and beyond,” said Hoban, calling their approach “more robust” than that in place at Golden Gate Fields. “This is not a one-meet endeavour. The confidence that has to be given to the horsemen is that we have found them a home for good.”

A key obstacle that CARF must negotiate is Pleasanton's lesser name recognition compared to Golden Gate. As an example, the DRF recently reported how the New York Racing Association anticipates a 20% decline in betting revenues due to the temporary closure of Belmont Park and the comparative weakness of the Aqueduct “brand.”

It will take time for the simulcasting handle to “pick up on who Golden State Racing is,” admitted Hoban. “I do think we could have a dip in handle because of brand recognition,” he added. “But if there's any team that could turn that around, it's going to be us.”

One of the areas that the board zeroed in on for scrutiny were the possible financial costs and logistical hurdles of complying with state environmental regulations.

“We're always concerned about environmental compliance, but we're a 265-acre property that is used to dealing with these things. This is not new business to us,” said Hoban.

“I think that some of the things that Del Mar, Santa Anita and Golden Gate Fields have had to deal with, they are in a different situation with their manure management programs, with their proximity to the ocean and the bay. I think our facility is already well ahead of those facilities in regards these topics,” said Hoban.

According to owner-breeder Justin Oldfield, part of a working group that drafted CARF's plan, the most pressing thing for all California stakeholders, North and South, is to nail down an outside source of income for purses, which would take a Herculean lift in California's tough political environment.

“There are things we haven't explored thoroughly before, like historical horse racing machines,” said Oldfield. But if realizing outside purse revenues “truly is our number one challenge,” that would require a unified industry front, he added.

“I don't know of a single person on our horsemen's working group or anywhere else that would disagree with that,” Oldfield said.

As for horsemen and women in the North, the mood at Golden Gate Fields since the vote has equated to one big “sigh of relief,” said trainer Blaine Wright.

“I think people are really going to do their darndest to make this a go, keep the horses supplied and make this a reality for us,” said Wright. “I've already had some phone calls from [former owners] who haven't been supporting Golden Gate saying that, 'hey, we're planning on claiming a horse or two for you up there, help make a go of it.' And that's awesome.”

Del Mar | Horsephotos

PURSE CUTS

What the CHRB's decision last Thursday doesn't do is remove the tough economics, especially in the South.

Multi-million purse deficits are fed by shrinking handle totals–wagering on California racing was down by around 5% in the first two months of 2024. At the heart of these equations are field sizes.

During the first 35 days of racing during Santa Anita's current meet (317 races), field sizes averaged out to 7.02 runners. At a comparable stage last year (after 31 days of racing and 282 individual races), the average field size was 7.54 runners. That said, the average field size at a comparable stage in 2022 (after 37 days racing and 328 races) was 6.90.

Interestingly, the 25% purse cuts at Golden Gate appear to have helped claw back a substantial amount of the track's $3.1 million purse deficit. According to data reviewed by the TDN, Golden Gate had recouped over $1.2 million of its purse account over-payment by the middle of March.

Nader said the next step is to come to a decision about purses for Santa Anita's remaining Spring meet by the beginning of April, in time for the next condition book.

A decision about Del Mar's purses will come out “shortly thereafter,” said Nader. “They're anxious to put out their schedule for the summer,” he added.

One notable impact from Golden Gate's closure is the schism that has opened up between interests in the North and South. Earlier this year, three Northern TOC members resigned in protest to what they saw as the organization's Southern-centric approach to the problem. These feelings clearly persist.

“What's the future of the TOC? I think they've lost some credibility,” said Tom Clark, the owner and manager of Rancho San Miguel, a mainstay of the state's breeding industry. “I think we need to strongly examine how the organization's currently structured, and what their mandate is.”

“We're doing all we can to give them comfort that we're here, that we're a resource, and that we accept and hear their views,” said Nader, when asked about the organization's approach to mending bridges.

“That doesn't mean we always agree,” said Nader. “But in the end, we have to land on what's best for California going forward. And we can't isolate this to a specific region, whether it's North or South. It's got to be a big-picture outlook of longer-term vision.

“And that's why getting actual data to accurately assess the benchmarks CARF put forward in its draft license application could be a good thing in the end,” Nader added. “Northern California is asking for a chance and the TOC is saying any business plan needs to be viable and sustainable. This is where we can find alignment.”

However, “if the numbers come out [at Pleasanton's meet] and it's far below expectations or below expectations, you'd need to find a way to pivot to meet the backup model,” Nader said.

What would that back-up model look like? “The backup would be to use the different assets in Southern California, meaning Los Alamitos, Santa Anita and Del Mar,” said Nader.

While stakeholders have raised questions over the years about 1/ST's financial commitment to its Californian assets–in particular, deferred maintenance at Santa Anita and Golden Gate's backsides–the company has still made and promised several costly investments in recent years.

This includes a new Tapeta training track, new turf chute at Santa Anita, and in state-of-the-art diagnostic imaging technologies. Earlier this year, 1/ST announced the California Crown at Santa Anita, revamping the card on G1 Awesome Again S. day, in homage to the Pegasus World Cup.

With that in mind, how seriously does Nader take Fravel's threat to sell Santa Anita?

“The key thing I think was when Fravel said Belinda is still very keen to continue racing there, and she's turned down many offers before,” said Nader.

“The one thing you'd say, the transparency of putting the industry on notice, in some regard, that's a good thing,” Nader added. “I'd rather have them say it than not say it and sell it in the middle of the night.”

THE BREEDERS

Conspicuous in their absence at the last CHRB meeting was a representative from Los Alamitos.

When asked if 1/ST's letter had any bearing on his nonattendance, Los Alamitos vice president Jack Liebau said, “at the board, I think there was a perception that a threat was being made, and I don't think it was well received. Los Alamitos and 'Doc' [Ed] Allred [Los Alamitos owner] perceived of that threat and decided it would not be a party to it.”

In recent months as discussions circulated on a consolidated circuit in the South, Liebau has discussed a possible legislative fix to expand the menu of Thoroughbred races offered at Los Alamitos. Currently outside of their scheduled Thoroughbred meets, Los Alamitos is limited to staging Thoroughbred races capped at 4 1/2 furlongs and at a $5,000 claiming price.

This proposal had followed the passing of key legislation last September, which means that when Golden Gate Fields no longer operates after June this year, proceeds from simulcast wagering in the Northern half of the state will be funneled south when the North doesn't conduct any live racing.

The idea of a legislative fix to expand the menu of Thoroughbred races on offer at Los Alamitos has been put on the “back-burner,” said Liebau. But he also stressed how Los Alamitos was never an active advocate but rather a “passive observer” of efforts like the proposed legislation.

“Doctor Allred has always said that Los Al would do whatever it can do to improve racing and to accommodate all the different interests. But when you get down to it, Los Al is really something of a bystander. It's happy to help, but certainly doesn't view itself as pushing that legislation,” said Liebau.

In discussions with various California stakeholders, the firm stance the CHRB took on Northern dates prompted several breeders holding off on breeding plans until the last moment to press the trigger.

“It was very important that we had something positive to announce to basically keep giving people a reason to breed,” said California Thoroughbred Breeders Association president, Doug Burge, who added that total reports of mares bred won't arrive until the fall.

Clark said he was unaware of such a trend. “It's not like people called me up, saying 'oh boy, with the vote last week, I guess I'm going ahead to breed,'” he said.

However, “one breeder I know, his mare had just foaled and he had to make a decision. He said, 'Yeah, now I feel a lot better about going ahead and breeding again,'” Clark added.

And what of Ferraro's idea for a single circuit in the state? That would look like year-round racing with meets North and South, but no over-lap with one-other, he said.

“Long-term, I think it's the only way California racing can survive,” said Ferraro. “We simply don't have enough horses or enough fan support to continue with this two-circuit racing.”

When asked about this proposition, Liebau voiced his reservations. “It's very difficult to react to a comment made by the chairman of the board, but I think the time passed on that long ago,” said Liebau.

The finances involved with keeping facilities operational in today's economic climate are massive, said Liebau. Indeed, Santa Anita has apparently incurred operating losses of more than $31 million over the last five years. Interestingly, during the latest CHRB meeting, Fravel offered up the company's books for the state regulator to examine.

“Frank Stronach always thought you needed to run year-round and every day because it's very difficult to keep a track like Santa Anita going if it's shut down half the year,” said Liebau.

As for Pleasanton, Liebau pointed to a couple potential positives.

One is that large purses don't necessarily correlate to larger fields. That, “and I suspect the horses in the North have more starts than horses in the South,” Liebau said, adding however that he hasn't crunched those numbers.

“The people in the North deserve to be given the chance to succeed or fail,” said Liebau. “But they have a long difficult road ahead of them.”

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Endlessly Stamps Preakness Ticket With El Camino Real Derby Win

Endlessly (Oscar Performance) got back in the winner's circle and earned himself a trip to the Triple Crown's middle jewel with a win in Saturday's El Camino Real Derby at Golden Gate. Having gone three for three to start his career, including wins in both the GIII Del Mar Juvenile Turf S. and the GIII Zuma Beach S., the son of Oscar Performance tried his hand at the top level but came up empty when eighth in the GI Breeders' Cup Juvenile Turf last November. Nominated to the Triple Crown series despite never having started on anything but the grass, Endlessly took the synthetic surface at Golden Gate with style. Breaking from the outside, the 3-5 favorite had only one rival beat passing the wire the first time by and he remained in a trailing position into the backstretch as several longshots traded turns on the lead. Put to a ride by Umberto Rispoli into the far turn, Endlessly responded in kind and began to eat into the leader's advantage to be amongst the top trio as the field swung into the stretch. With a late charge down the center of the track, the colt secured the win.

One of six stakes winners for Oscar Perfomance, Endlessly is out of a half-sister to the dams of GISW Coffee Clique (Medaglia d'Oro), MGSW Admission Office (Point of Entry) and MGSP Royal Fury (Langfuhr). Dream Fuhrever produced this runner's full-brother last year.

EL CAMINO REAL DERBY, $101,350, Golden Gate Fields, 2-10, 3yo, 1 1/8m (AWT), 1:50.68, ft.
1–ENDLESSLY, 122, c, 3, by Oscar Performance
                1st Dam: Dream Fuhrever, by Langfuhr
                2nd Dam: Society Dream (Fr), by Akarad (Fr)
                3rd Dam: Society Bride, by Blushing Groom (Fr)
O/B-Jerry Amerman (KY); T-Michael W. McCarthy; J-Umberto Rispoli. $60,000. Lifetime Record: MGSW, 5-4-0-0, $299,200.
2–Tapalo, 122, r, 3, Tapiture–Agent Romanoff, by Empire Maker. ($40,000 Ylg '22 OBSWIN; $20,000 Ylg '22 SARAUG; $55,000 2yo '23 OBSMAR). 1ST BLACK TYPE. O-Hronis Racing LLC; B-Saratoga Glen Farm, LLC (NY); T-John W. Sadler. $20,000.
3–Guy Named Joe, 122, c, 3, American Pharoah–Hungry Island, by More Than Ready. ($280,000 Ylg '22 KEESEP; $100,000 2yo '23 OBSOPN). 1ST BLACK TYPE. O-My Way Racing LLC, West Coast Stables, LLC, Barbara Evenson, John O'Keefe and Timothy O'Keefe; B-Emory A. Hamilton (KY); T-Doug F. O'Neill. $12,000.
Margins: 1 1/4, 1 3/4, 4. Odds: 0.70, 3.70, 3.60.
Also Ran: Old Triangle, Grogu, Come Out Fighting, Arctic Breeze, Wild Jewels.

 

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Golden Gate Trainer Ruled Against in Rape Case

Trainer Ari Herbertson lost a civil rape case and will owe the unnamed plaintiff $9 million, according to an email from Diane Rames, law office administrator at the Oakland firm Gwilliam Ivary Chiosso Cavalli & Brewer, APC.

According to the firm's email, Jane Doe was attending live racing at Golden Gate on Jan. 12, 2019 when she was drugged and raped by Herbertson. The latter was first criminally prosecuted and plead no contest to a lesser charge of assault with a deadly weapon. He was sentenced to one-year incarceration and two years' probation in that case before Alameda County Superior Court Judge Jeffrey Brand ruled in the civil case Jan. 17. The civil action alleged various torts related to the rape. Judge Brand awarded the defendant $3 million in general damages and $6 million in punitive damages.

“I commend Jane Doe for pursuing her civil case,” said attorney Randall Strauss of Gwilliam Ivary Chiosso Cavalli & Brewer, who represented the plaintiff throughout her civil case. “She was viciously and violently attacked, yet she was unafraid to pursue her attacker in court. Her bravery helps send a message that our society will not tolerate sexual battery and will work to seek justice for victims of sexual abuse.”

According to equineline.com, Herbertson trained from 2016-21 and compiled a record of 134 wins from 447 starts. Click to see a copy of the court order.

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Vocal Two-Circuit Supporters in Cali Come Out Firing in First of Many Expected North/South Skirmishes

The precarious, up-in-the-air future of California racing and whether or not the state can continue to support two geographic year-round circuits was made no clearer after Thursday's California Horse Racing Board (CHRB) meeting. The 3 1/2-hour session was dominated by discussion of competing North-versus-South plans that both tried to carve a sustainable path forward while underscoring the dire circumstances that face the industry with the June 9 closure of Golden Gate Fields looming like an unavoidable asteroid.

Although the CHRB concluded the meeting–which featured testimony that was at times emotional, hopeful, angry, and even ominous–without taking any voting action on the situation, proponents behind ideas that would turn one of the NorCal fairs locations into a venue capable of hosting nearly year-round Thoroughbred racing had a decided edge in turnout and vocal support.

In part, that's because those NorCal-based supporters enjoyed a home-track advantage, because the Jan. 18 CHRB meeting was held at Cal Expo in Sacramento, the preferred location for a year-round venue as outlined in a presentation by the California Authority of Racing Fairs (CARF).

But the locale wasn't the only factor, as much of the back-and-forth debate also came across as a referendum about larger racing entities allegedly trying to trump smaller ones, whether or not 1/ST Racing and Gaming–which owns both Golden Gate and Santa Anita Park–will be good for the state in the long run, and whether or not the Thoroughbred Owners of California (TOC) organization speaks for all the stakeholders in the state or just the higher-end stables based in SoCal.

Yet it was telling that no fewer than 26 industry stakeholders spoke before the board on this wide-ranging, controversial North/South topic during the public commentary period, and not a single one voiced support for an alternate plan proposed by TOC in conjunction with executives from Santa Anita Park and Del Mar Thoroughbred Club.

That TOC-backed concept would consolidate all commercial-track racing in the state at SoCal. The goal would be to maintain level purses there under a simulcast revenue “redirect” plan that would also try to accommodate displaced Golden Gate outfits by creating more opportunities for lower-level horses to race at Los Alamitos Race Course, dropping the “claiming floors” at both Santa Anita and Del Mar, and establishing “relocation allowances” for stables that had to pack up and move.

The TOC's takeaway message was that even though it is in support of any “feasible and viable” plan to keep year-round racing afloat in NorCal, a danger exists in the form of increasing economic pressures in the South that, in turn, could contribute to millions of dollars in purse overpayments at Santa Anita and Del Mar that would likely erode the overall California product.

“With the closing of Golden Gate, can we continue to support two full-time circuits? This is a fair question,” said Bill Nader, the TOC's president and chief executive officer.

“We are running out of time,” Nader continued. “If there is agreement on one point, I think it would be that the latest possible decision on the allocation of 2024-25 race dates would be at the CHRB meeting in March. This would help re-establish stability and certainty for the many who are looking for answers.”

Nader's tone was largely somber and straightforward as he discussed the TOC's rationale with executives from 1/ST Racing and Del Mar presenting alongside. But at times his comments were met with derision and catcalls from opponents, who greatly outnumbered the supporters of the TOC's plan.

Many of those same folks also cheered and applauded any mentions of trying to save year-round NorCal racing.

At one point, CHRB chairman Gregory Ferraro, DVM, asked audience members to respect decorum so that the outbursts wouldn't bog down the meeting. But his request to “stop the clapping and the booing” went largely unheeded.

Larry Swartzlander, the executive director for CARF, detailed his organization's work-in-progress plan to install a seven-furlong track inside the current main mile oval at Cal Expo, which for years has largely hosted Standardbred racing outside of the short season that the Thoroughbred fair races in Sacramento.

Swartzlander said Cal Expo would likely race 103 Thoroughbred dates in the future (on the outer oval), with cards scheduled roughly twice weekly when the other NorCal fairs weren't in season.

“We are looking at funding from horsemen, CARF, and potential grants,” Swartzlander said, admitting that his plan is just in its initial stages because horsemen in California have only known since July about 1/ST Racing's plan to close Golden Gate.

As a result, Swartzlander was light on specifics such as firm costs and a timeline.

Swartzlander said next up is a Jan. 26 meeting with the Cal Expo board of directors seeking conceptual approval.

“If the board does decline to approve racing at Cal Expo, we will move to Pleasanton,” as a potential year-round NorCal racing home, Swartzlander said. “The Pleasanton board is very strongly in support of racing, and if I have to make one commitment to you, Pleasanton will race.”

When CHRB executive director Scott Chaney pressed Swartzlander for cost details, Swartzlander gave an estimate for state-owned Cal Expo's overhaul in the $1- to 1.5-million range.

Chaney expressed surprise at such a low figure.

“I'm not going to lie. I think you're very low,” Chaney said.

“One of the things that concerns all of us is uncertainty right now,” Chaney said. “We're, I'm sure, bleeding horses every day because there's no clear plan. We don't know what we're doing in the future [and] I am concerned about timeline and cost at Cal Expo. I just think it's unrealistic. I know it's unrealistic, to be honest.”

Commissioner Wendy Mitchell said she appreciated CARF's efforts at coming up with a plan, but also expressed doubts.

“I don't see how any of this lines up,” Mitchell said. “And I guess my concern from a regulatory or from the industry perspective is I don't want to create false expectations for people that are really unattainable…. I don't mean to be negative or a doubter, but I'm trying to be realistic and pragmatic about what the industry is facing.”

Commissioner Damascus Castellanos said that the time crunch and uncertainty was caused by 1/ST Racing, not CARF.

“The industry was kind of slow to get going on this whole thing,” Castellanos said. “We would be so further along if [1/ST Racing] came to us with proper notice [and] the groups in this room today probably could have gotten together and been done with this plan.”

Ian McLean, an owner and breeder, said during the public commentary session that the CHRB itself is partly to blame.

“If I'm not mistaken, this board works for us. We don't work for you,” McLean said. “The one thing that I've asked this board for years and years is to give us more attention in NorCal. Give us more time. Make us more important. Listen to what we have to say, and make us feel like we matter. And I don't think that's been done.”

McLean said the CHRB's response to CARF's proposal is too focused on negativity and “looking for the holes” in the plan.

“And I agree that you should look for the holes,” McLean continued. “But you should also look for 'How could we patch those holes?'”

Jamey Thomas, a third-generation NorCal trainer, advocated for the CHRB taking a slower approach.

“CARF needs time to get all this situated and done,” Thomas said. “It's kind of been a rush job. They're rushing us, forcing us, to get this stuff done faster than it can be done. Again, if they had let us know a year ago, by now everything could have been in place, we would have had a place to run. And we will have a place to run. The thing is, we just need the time.”

Tom Bachman, who said he's been breeding and selling Thoroughbreds in California for 40 years, underscored that the state's bloodstock industry works on a different timeline.

“My concern as a breeder is that the decisions I make today, the results are three or four years away when I've got to sell,” said Bachman. “So it's very difficult to have faith that three or four years from now there's sustainable racing in California. So my breeding now has moved to Kentucky.”

Johnny Taboada, who was a TOC director until last Sunday, when he was one of three directors to resign in protest over the TOC's proposed statewide consolidation, told the CHRB that the NorCal fairs are in jeopardy without a year-round track in the region.

“If you rush into the decision without giving the chance for the NorCal [entities to come up with an plan for a] circuit, you're going to not only put people out of work, you're going to be closing the fairs as well,” Taboada said. “If we don't have the dates assigned to the North and therefore the money goes to the South, that will be the end of not only NorCal racing, but also the fairs.”

CHRB chairman Ferraro wrapped up the session by saying that this is only the first major discussion on an enormously important topic.

“We needed your information. We need your input,” Ferraro said. “I'm telling you, it's not easy sitting in this chair looking at this situation. It is almost a no-win situation for this board. We're going to do the best we can to do right by everybody. But obviously, we have no decision-making [Thursday], so we will have to end this meeting without a decision, and we'll see what happens over the next couple of months.”

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