Paul Thorman Q&A: Trickledown Boss On Ambitions In Retirement And More

The Tattersalls December Mares Sale marked the end of an era with Paul and Sara Thorman bringing the curtain down on their Trickledown Stud. 

Trickledown made its first public offering back in 1990 and has seen a kaleidoscope of change in the industry ever since. 

The Thormans will forever be associated for having back-to-back 2,000 Guineas winners–George Washington (Ire) and Cockney Rebel (Ire)–through their hands in the early noughties

George Washington was sold by Trickledown on behalf of his breeder at Tattersalls in 2004, where he topped Book 1 when selling to Demi O'Byrne on behalf of Coolmore for 1,150,000gns. 

Meanwhile, Cockney Rebel, who was bought as a foal by Trickledown for 15,000gns, turned a pinhooking profit when selling to Bobby O'Ryan for £30,000 as a yearling. George Washington won the 2,000 Guineas in 2006 while Cockney Rebel followed up the following year.

Amazingly, Thorman's association with back-to-back Guineas winners does not rank as his greatest day in the sport. Instead, it was the pinhooking of Dutch Art's dam–12,000gns into 710,000gns in less than a year–which towers above everything else. 

In this week's Q&A, Thorman reflects on some of those great days as well as his concerns for the sport and future ambitions. 

You brought the curtain down on the Trickledown consignment at Tattersalls in December. Was the much emotion involved in that process?

It wasn't so much emotion but more relief. Sara got hurt at Book 3 and when I went to see her in hospital that night I said, 'right, that's it, we'll finish now.' I'd been pushing out the retirement and I know Sara was ready for it as well. You know, when there is a yearling or a foal misbehaving, you are the one who has to grab a hold of it. There comes a time where that is no longer the sensible thing to do and we were ready to retire. We have been the luckiest people in this industry and had the most amazing staff. Some of the staff have been with us since they were 15 or 16 and came back to us after they've had a family. We've also had some brilliant owners, the likes of Chris Mills and Ray Townsend, who have been with us for 30-odd years. No outfit can operate and survive without good owners and staff and we have been blessed with both.

The consignment business has changed a lot since you and Sara started. Trickledown would have been one of the first major consignors in Britain back in 1990. What have been the biggest changes that you have seen since you started?

Since we have started, we have seen the likes of Castlebridge, Barton and similar outfits become huge. We've had our loyal bunch of supporters but, as they have gotten older, some have dropped away. Young people like to work with young people and that's why maybe Castlebridge and Barton consign major numbers. I mean, when we started, we used to consign 80-odd foals and we had the best owners that anyone could ask for. We consigned over 1.5m gns worth of foals three years running at one point. This year, the same group of owners were down to just 30 foals to consign. We haven't have a new client for five years. Certainly not a major client. But things evolve and we certainly hadn't been looking for that same volume of work as we were. It has dwindled down without us doing anything and things move on. It was time.

I know you've had a lot of good horses through your hands but, in many ways, you have been the champion of the smaller breeder. With that in mind, how tough was it to watch on at the breeding stock sales last year?

Oh, for sure. We gave, and I mean gave, two mares and two foals away. These are animals that, five years ago, they would have made five or six grand to Italy or wherever. I had to work hard to give those horses away and, I promise you, they weren't wrecks. You can very quickly work out if a foal is a wreck and if it is never going to be worth anything but these were not wrecks. The two mares we gave away would certainly have been viable three or four years ago. These mares and foals belonged to smaller breeders who have been great clients of ours and it was bloody hard turning to them to explain what was going to happen. Now, we did telegraph it a long way out because the horse were all by stallions who had fallen off a cliff. But, even when you put no reserve on the horse and you don't even get a bid in the ring, that takes a shine off things. Fashion has never been stronger. We used to be able to sell yearlings by unpopular stallions. If they were good-looking horses out of reasonable mares, they'd find a level and sometimes that level was quite good. Sir Mark Prescott, Peter Makin, the likes of those people would always buy a good-looking horse by an unfashionable sire. Now, if you have picked the wrong sire, there is nobody for it. Stallions are never as good or bad as fashion says they are.

Dutch Art: Thorman pinhooked the horse's dam for major profit | Racingfotos.com

Will fashion play much of a role in your pinhooking? I suppose it will have to. 

The only thing about fashion when pinhooking is that you have a year for things to change. You couldn't buy a Havana Grey (GB) at Tattersalls in December unless you had a big budget but there were some stallions out there that you felt still had mileage in them so you were happy to buy a foal out of those horses. The most expensive foal we bought was an Ardad (Ire). He had 108 foals two years ago so he has plenty of runners to represent him this year. He was also one of the leading first-crop sires two years ago so he must still have a chance, mustn't he? This foal was a dinger. Now, if Ardad doesn't come off, we might be lucky to get thirty grand for him. But if Ardad comes back into fashion, this could easily be a one-hundred grand yearling. It's buying a lottery ticket, isn't it? There are several horses you could have said would have had the makings of being a decent first-crop sire last year. There are probably four of those stallions who have absolutely been canned already. I mean, you cannot get a bid if you are by any of those stallions. But they are not that bad. Fashion has multiplied their disappointment. 

Getting back to the foal sales, have you any other thoughts as to why things were so bad for your clients?

There weren't any foreign buyers at Tattersalls. I got talking to one of the transport men and, I don't know if he was spinning a yarn or not, but he told me that between Brexit and the English paperwork, it costs the foreign buyers on average one thousand pounds more to get a foal home from England compared to Ireland. That has certainly made a difference. There was more of a market at the lower end at the foal sales at Goffs in Ireland. But at the other end of the spectrum, we had a decent order to go and buy a foal. We were prepared to spend fifty, sixty or seventy grand but, everything we liked, we just kept on getting blown out of the water. We weren't even finishing second or third on these nicer foals. 

Your broodmare band is down to four. How hard has it become to breed commercially? It's obviously a lot more expensive to produce the horses and perhaps now more so than ever you have to be very careful about what stallions you choose. 

Our philosophy to breeding has changed a lot but that is due to circumstances. We don't have the farm anymore. When you have a farm, whether you've six mares in a field or eight mares in a field, it doesn't make a fat lot of difference. You can kid yourself that you are keeping them for nothing so, that chancy mare, you might sit with her an extra year or two. When we gave up the tenancy of the farm, we looked at our mares very critically and decided that, if they had two runners that were no good, we shifted them on. Again, I wanted to buy a decent mare in December but didn't because my want list was bigger than my budget. The mares I have are getting a bit older and I could do with some new blood in there. But it's funny, all the good mares I have bought down through the years, I've almost bought them by mistake. The cliche is that the good mare finds you and that you don't find the good mare.

You've had your fair share of good touches. Is there one result that towers above another?

It would have to be Halland Park Lass (Ire) (Spectrum {Ire}), the dam of Dutch Art (GB), because, again, I bought her by mistake. I had no intention of buying her. I had a bunch of friends who told me that, if I saw a cheap mare, they'd like to come in on one with me. They were two veterinary surgeons from Newmarket and an auctioneer [Ollie Fowlsten]. Every mare I tried to buy for us, I got blown out of the water. A friend came up to me to tell me about Halland Park Lass and said 'she won't do you any harm.' I couldn't find a reason not to buy her so I bought her. I had seen Dutch Art at Doncaster and, although he wasn't the best-looking yearling, I remember being taken by how athletic he was. That was a great story because the two vets bought houses on the proceeds of her sale, as did the auctioneer. I sold a foal out of the mare to my daughter when Dutch Art won his maiden and that ended up helping her to buy a house. For me and Sara, the biggest thrill of all was the fact we did it for relatively small people. When we sold George [Washington], yes it was great and he was the only yearling that year to make over a million, but the owner was already a millionaire and had a big reserve on the horse. So, it was almost a relief when he sold rather than a slap on the back moment. Anybody could have sold George. Well, maybe not anybody, as he wasn't the simplest fella to deal with. The bulk of the fun we had at Trickledown was when people got a touch and it really mattered to them. 

Given everything you achieved–being associated with back-to-back Guineas winners and that massive profit with Halland Park Lass–is there more left to tick off?

I'd love to own a very good racehorse. We've had plenty of fun with the horses we've raced but never had a real one. But then again, we tend to race what we're left with rather than what we really like. There might be an opportunity to keep one that we really like going forward. Sara and I are very much into our point-to-pointing and we've got two pointers in training with Chris Barber, one of which we know is only going to be a fun horse. We went to 17 or 18 points last year and had so much fun. If I was to ever win one of the big races, the Foxhunters at Cheltenham or Aintree would be top of my list. Could you imagine the buzz? That would be a dream. 

And who will consign your horses going forward?

David Hegarty, who has just set up on his own, and Robbie Mills, who is actually the son of Chris Mills, who we have sold horses for for over 30 years. He's trading as RMM Bloodstock. You watch them over the next year or two. Both are exceptional talents. They'll find it easy following us!

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Jacksons Stay Loyal To The Racing Game

When Roy and Gretchen Jackson purchased their 190-acre property in Chester County, Pennsylvania, in 1978, they christened it Lael Farm, the Gaelic word for loyalty. Today, more than 40 years into the couples' transatlantic forays in the world of breeding and racing Thoroughbreds, that name could hardly be more appropriate.

The Jacksons, both lifelong horse people, became household names in the sport and beyond in 2006 during their months-long attempt to save the life of their GI Kentucky Derby winner Barbaro (Dynaformer) after the colt suffered what was ultimately a fatal injury shortly out of the gates in the GI Preakness S. That wasn't the first time the Jacksons had worn their loves of their horses on their sleeves, and it was far from the last: today, Barbaro's dam, the 25-year-old La Ville Rouge, is enjoying her retirement in a paddock within eyesight of the Jacksons' home on Lael Farm. Her paddock mate is the 23-year-old Superstar Leo (Ire) (College Chapel {GB}), who has provided the Jacksons with so many happy days on the European racing circuits, particularly thanks to her granddaughter, the triple G1 Prix de la Foret winner One Master (GB) (Fastnet Rock {Aus}). Superstar Leo was the first horse the Jacksons purchased in Europe-a venture that would also include breeding the champion 2-year-old and 2000 Guineas winner George Washington (Ire) (Galileo {Ire}), who in an amazing feat won his Classic on the same day as Barbaro's Derby. After Superstar Leo was weaned from her last foal, a now 2-year-old colt by Havana Gold (Ire), the Jacksons repatriated her to Pennsylvania to enjoy her in retirement.

Even amidst breeding and campaigning Classic winners on both sides of the Atlantic, Gretchen Jackson said the experience with One Master has been “pretty up there.”

“We're really proud of her,” she said. “We have Superstar Leo in Pennsylvania now with all our retired broodmares, and to just visit her daily, and what she's accomplished with One Master, it just makes us glow inside. We love her.”

“We brought her over here to live out her life and she's turned out in a field right in front of the house here with Barbaro's dam and a filly that was very good to us named Belle Cherie, who was running around the same time as Superstar Leo,” Roy Jackson added. “They're out here enjoying life.”

Bred by legendary jockey Lester Piggott and Tony Hirschfeld, Superstar Leo was the ninth foal out of the placed Council Rock, whose family was somewhat ordinary at the time but which later blossomed to produce a plethora of black-type winners including Classic winners Footstepsinthesand (GB) and Power (GB) in addition to One Master. Superstar Leo was bought back by Piggott's daughter Maureen Haggas for 3,400gns at Tattersalls October as a yearling in 1999 and put into training with Haggas's husband William. After finishing second at first-asking in May of her 2-year-old campaign, Superstar Leo won a pair of races at Catterick before beating the boys at Royal Ascot in the G3 Norfolk S. It was that victory that caught the eye of Gretchen Jackson all the way over in Pennsylvania.

“I had read about her winning a race in England in the TDN,” she recalled. “The name Superstar Leo struck me, and I inquired about her and she was for sale. It took some negotiating with Lester Piggott and her other owner, Tony Hirschfeld, but we got her and she was a delight. She won the Cartier award for us just a few months later. We've gotten so much pleasure from her offspring and her granddaughter, One Master.”

As Jackson alluded to, Superstar Leo added victories over the colts in the G2 Flying Childers S. in the summer of 2000 and the Weatherbys Super Sprint. She was second in the G1 Phoenix S. and against elders in the G1 Prix de l'Abbaye on the Longchamp card that her granddaughter One Master would make her own between 2018 and 2020.

Just as significant as Superstar Leo's victories was the relationship she solidified between the Jacksons and the Haggases. William Haggas today trains most of the Jackson runners in Europe, and was responsible for both One Master and her stakes-winning dam Enticing (Ire) (Pivotal {GB}).

“He's a great person and a great trainer, and his wife [Maureen] enters into it wholeheartedly,” Gretchen said. “She's very talented too.”

Superstar Leo was retired to stud in 2002 and her second foal was Enticing, who emulated her dam by becoming a stakes-winning 2-year-old with a victory in the G3 Molecomb S. in 2006, just months after Barbaro and George Washington had won their respective Classics. Enticing would add the Listed Lansdown Fillies' S. at three and finish second in the G3 King George S. before going one better in that Glorious Goodwood feature for Haggas at four.

One Master, the fifth of 10 foals thus far out of Enticing, certainly inherited her dam's longevity moreso than her granddam's precocity. One Master was not seen on a racecourse until August of her 3-year-old campaign, but she promptly made up for lost time, breaking her maiden at second asking and adding the Listed October S. at Ascot before seasons' end. Just a few lengths away in a trio of stakes to kick off her 4-year-old campaign, One Master won the G3 Fairy Bridge S. that August before upsetting the G1 Prix de la Foret at 33-1.

“I remember watching the Prix de la Foret when she was four and she won it,” Gretchen Jackson recalled. “And I was as mad as the devil at William for not telling us that she could possibly win it, because we would have been there. He had no idea how she won it, though he was hoping she would.”

Happily, the Jacksons were at Longchamp a year later when One Master defended her title after placing in the G1 Queen Anne S. and G1 Falmouth S. They had also traveled to Kentucky to see her run fifth in the GI Breeders' Cup Mile the prior November, and to Hong Kong when she ran in the G1 Hong Kong Mile a month later.

“She took us on quite a tour,” Roy summarized.

The coronavirus pandemic meant that the Jacksons couldn't be there to see One Master make it a hat trick of Forets at Longchamp last October, or when she won the G3 Oak Tree S. at Glorious Goodwood in July on the same card that her year-younger half-brother Prompted (GB) (Bated Breath {GB}) took the Golden Mile H.

And although One Master's racing career came to an anti-climatic close when she was scratched from last year's Breeders' Cup Mile after tying up at Keeneland, the Jacksons still have plenty to look forward to with her as she visits Dubawi (Ire) for her first covering this year. One Master resides alongside her dam and five other Lael broodmares at New England Stud in Newmarket. Roy Jackson noted that New England's Peter Stanley has been just as pivotal in the Jacksons' enjoyment of the European industry as the Haggeses have been, and after discussing options with him for One Master they decided to simply “breed her to the best.”

One Master and Prompting were among three winners last year for Enticing-her now 3-year-old filly Arousing (GB) (Kodiac {GB}) won at Yarmouth at first asking in September in the Lael silks, and Roy noted that Haggas holds her in high regard. Soon after the turn of the new year, 4-year-old gelding Craved (GB) (Kodiac {GB}) became Enticing's sixth winner, firing off victories at Newcastle on Jan. 23 and Southwell on Feb. 9. Enticing's latest produce is a yearling full-brother to One Master, and she will unfortunately not have a foal for 2021 after slipping another foal by Fastnet Rock. A mating plan for this year has not yet been set in stone.

In addition to Enticing, the Jacksons have three other daughters of Superstar Leo in their broodmare band. The Listed Fleur de Lys Fillies' S. winner and G3 Jersey S. second Sentaril (GB) (Danehill Dancer {Ire}) has bred two winners for Lael and has a 2-year-old colt by Dabirsim (Fr) this year, and her full-sister Cloud Line (GB) is the dam of a winner and has a 2-year-old colt by Showcasing (GB). The 7-year-old Yaraki (GB) (Frankel {GB}), meanwhile, has joined the Jacksons' 21-strong American broodmare band in Kentucky and has already foaled a filly by Hard Spun this year.

The Jacksons also have a half-sister to George Washington, the 10-year-old Sea The Stars (Ire) mare Wonderstruck (Ire), at New England Stud, and her 3-year-old filly Ready To Venture (GB) (Kingman {GB}) was a winner in the Lael blue, green and white at second asking in September at Yarmouth for Haggas. Roy Jackson said Wonderstruck “is producing good, sound horses.”

The story of the Jacksons and George Washington is almost as serendipitous as that of Superstar Leo. The Jacksons bought into George Washington's half-brother Grandera (Ire) (Grand Lodge) and raced him with Viv Shelton during a 3-year-old campaign in which he won the Listed Dubai Arc Trial and was placed in the G1 Prix du Jockey Club, G1 Eclipse S. and G1 Juddmonte International for trainer James Fanshawe. Shelton and the Jacksons sold Grandera privately when they got a big offer from Godolphin, for whom he went on to win three Group 1s at four, and the Jacksons used part of their proceeds to purchase his dam, the Wildenstein-bred Bordighera (Alysheba), privately. The second foal she produced for the Jacksons was George Washington, who they sold to Coolmore for 1.15-million gns as a yearling. Roy said it was a tough decision to let George Washington go, but that they had decided to do so if the price was right.

“Over the years we've kept many and tried to race them, but it just made business sense,” he said. “We got a very big offer and we felt that it was time to recoup some of the money and do some other things in racing with the money. We thought it made business sense to do it.”

George Washington would, of course, go on to win the G1 Phoenix S. and G1 National S. at two and the G1 2000 Guineas and G1 Queen Elizabeth II S. at three and finish second in the G1 Irish 2000 Guineas. Fertility issues meant that he sired just one live foal in 2006, the winning and stakes-producing Date With Destiny (Ire), and he was sadly lost during the running of the 2007 GI Breeders' Cup Classic at Monmouth Park.

The Jacksons have, in more recent years, continued to apply the same formula that led to such great success with Superstar Leo and La Ville Rouge: purchasing top-class fillies in training. They bought Hawksmoor (Ire) (Azamour {Ire}) in 2016 from Chris Humber after she had won the G3 Prestige S. at two and placed in the G1 Fillies' Mile and G1 Prix Saint Alary for trainer Hugo Palmer, and she went on to win the G2 German 1000 Guineas in the Lael colours before transferring to American-based trainer Arnaud Delacour, for whom she won three Grade IIIs and placed in two Grade IIs. Hawksmoor is in foal for the first time to Palace Malice, a Classic-winning son of Curlin.

The Jacksons went back to Humber and Palmer the following spring to buy the listed placed Architecture (Ire) (Zoffany {Ire}), and she went on to place in the Epsom, Irish and German Oaks before being bought by Katsumi Yoshida for 600,000gns at Tattersalls December in 2019. Last spring, the Jacksons purchased the G3 Prix Vanteaux winner Magic Attitude (Ire) (Galileo {Ire}) from Haras du Saubouas ahead of her second-place finish in the G1 Prix Saint Alary. Switched to Delacour from Fabrice Chappet, Magic Attitude won the GI Belmont Oaks and was third in the GI Queen Elizabeth II Challenge Cup, and is currently tuning up for a 4-year-old campaign.

“We've tried to do a bit of that, I guess somewhat related to our age too,” said Roy. He and Gretchen are both 84. “If something has a foal now, by the time it's going to run it's going to be some years down the road, so we're always looking to see whether there's something coming along that's going to run that we'll pick up.”

Speaking with Roy and Gretchen Jackson, one gets a sense that there is no measuring the pride they feel and they joy they have derived from their transatlantic racing and breeding programme. Both are lifelong horse people-Gretchen as a foxhunter and Roy as the son of a foxhunter whose mother later dabbled in racehorses-and thus understand the extreme ups and downs of the game, which they have themselves withstood as much as anyone. They both grew up somewhat locally to Chester County-Roy just 10 miles away in Edgemont and Gretchen in Philadelphia-and thus can boast a deep appreciation for the land on which Superstar Leo and La Ville Rouge now graze, and where legendary steeplechase conditioner Jonathan Sheppard once trained just a stone's throw away. Roy Jackson spent six years as a stockbroker before pursuing his passion of baseball, eventually owning a few professional teams and also working with minor league teams before helping to found Convest, a management firm for professional athletes in the mid 1980s. Jackson eventually sold his share in Convest to focus full-time on horse racing, and the labours of he and Gretchen's love in that realm have been a gift to fans of racing on both sides of the Atlantic.

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Kingman Colt Tops Book 2 Opener At Tattersalls October Sale

Book 2 of the Tattersalls October Yearling Sale got off to a strong start with five lots selling for 300,000 guineas (US$411,500) or more and a son of Kingman topping proceedings at 400,000 guineas (US$548,667).

The fireworks started early during the opening day of Book 2 of the Tattersalls October Yearling Sale, with the Kingman colt out of the Rip Van Winkle mare Allez Y selling for 400,000 guineas (US$548,667) to Godolphin. The granddaughter of champion European 3-year-old filly l'Ancresse was bred by John Camilleri's Fairway Thoroughbreds and consigned to the sale by Harry McCalmont's Norelands Stud.

“He is a very nice horse, nice horses are easy to sell, and there is a strong market for nice horses,” admitted McCalmont. “The dam Allez Y is going to Australia, she belongs to John Camilleri, who bred Winx, and is in-foal to Lope De Vega on Southern Hemisphere time. I am delighted I have sold a good horse for him, very happy.”

The son of Kingman is one of seven yearlings on offer in Book 2 by the in-demand stallion and was knocked down to Anthony Stroud after he saw off the efforts of Irish trainer Joseph O'Brien.

“He is from Norelands who do a fantastic job, he is a well-balanced horse, moved well and we have had a lot of luck with Kingman – Palace Pier and Persian King. He will go to France to be trained by Andre Fabre,” reported Stroud.

Allez Y is a half-sister to the Group 3 winning Frankel colt Master of Reality, who is trained by Joseph O'Brien and is as short as 22/1 for this year's Melbourne Cup.

Date With Destiny's Daughter Makes 350,000 Guineas

Newsells Park Stud were celebrating when their daughter of first season sire Churchill out of George Washington's only foal Date With Destiny sold for 350,000 guineas (US$480,209). The three-parts sister to the Group 3 winner Beautiful Morming, who realized 1.4 million guineas (US$1,920,806) at the Tattersalls December Mares Sale in 2018, was knocked down to Stroud Coleman's Anthony Stroud after he saw off AMO Racing's Kia Joorabchian stood alongside Robson Aguiar.

Julian Dollar of Newsells said: “When we bought Date With Destiny some people asked us if it was because of that rarity value, but it really wasn't. We'd had some luck with the family before, and Flawly was one of the first mares we bought and she produced Best Name – she was one of the best mares we had early on in terms of sales and as a producer. We were very fond of the family so when the opportunity came to buy a bit more of it, we came in with her.

“We mated her to Galileo and she produced a lovely filly in Beautiful Morning, so we went to the son. The Churchill was an interesting mating, going back to something familiar but to put in a bit more speed and precocity, the mare herself was quite precocious.”

Newsells Park Stud purchased Date With Destiny at the 2011 Tattersalls December Mare Sale for 185,000 guineas via agent John Warren.

Book 2 of the Tattersalls October Yearling Sale continues at 10 a.m. on Tuesday, Oct. 13.

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