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Freddie McKibbin Q&A: ‘My Auctioneering Style Is Lots Of Energy’

Freddie McKibbin has established himself as one of the most recognisable auctioneers at Tattersalls in a short space of time. The achievement is impressive enough given McKibbin is just 25 years of age. But the fact that he didn't set out to be an auctioneer in the first place is all the more creditable.

McKibbin sat down with Brian Sheerin during the December Mares Sale to discuss his career to date and hopes for the future for the latest TDN Q&A.

It's hard to believe that you've only been auctioneering for two years.

I started in August 2021 but it feels like I have been doing it for a good while now. Auctioneering at Book 2 this year was nerve-wracking but, since then, it just feels like it is second nature for me which is encouraging.

And you didn't set out to be an auctioneer, either.

No, that's true. I started bid spotting for Tattersalls during my gap year to try and earn a little bit of extra money on the side. I was working as a pupil assistant with Simon Crisford at the time. I'd always looked at the auctioneers and thought, 'God, I could never do that.' A couple of years later, after I'd done the Irish National Stud course and worked in Australia, I came back and applied for the Tattersalls internship. Luckily, I got that, but it wasn't until I sat down with Ollie Fowlston that I thought about becoming an auctioneer. When you think of auctioneering, you think of the American and Australian way of doing things, where the numbers just roll off the tongue. Obviously at Tattersalls, we have a more traditional way of doing things, where you make out what the auctioneer is saying and the figures the auctioneer is asking for. I initially thought I'd be too boring-and just say numbers, numbers, numbers-but I practiced a lot and Ollie came up to the ring with me quite a bit at the start. He was my mentor and the guy who honed in on me and said, 'right, if you want to give auctioneering a go, this is what you need to do.' Edmond Mahony was also a huge help and he invested a lot of time in coming up to the ring whilst I was practising and giving me advice and things to work on. It took a good year of practicing pretty much three or four times a week before I was ready for the real thing.

What does that unseen practice consist of?

So, we'd do it in sections. The ring would be completely empty but for me and Ollie. We'd start with the figures, going from one thousand, to two thousand and three thousand, and just get into a patter from there. Next we'd add in the fillers, which would be, 'bid again,' for example and then we could concentrate on introducing the lot and eventually the selling of the lot. We'd do it all in different parts before piecing it all together in the empty ring. Once I got to a certain stage Edmond would then come up with me, he would put his hand up and I would take the bid from him. I wasn't allowed to go on to the next bid until he took his hand down. I was like, 'right, this is a live situation,' and I had to stay on that figure and work as though it was a real sale. Essentially, counting is the easy part, but it's when you haven't got any bid and you have to fill the time, that's when it becomes tricky.

Even for me watching on as a journalist, I find it hard to track who's bidding so I can only imagine how difficult it is for you to maintain your rhythm as well as everything else.

It is difficult and, here at Tattersalls, we can't take a bid unless we have seen it. At other sales houses, they have bid spotters who can make noises to signify a bid has been taken, but we don't do that here. The bidder has to bid to the auctioneer at Tattersalls for it to be accepted. There's a lot going on but, it's really enjoyable and, the more you do something, the more confident you get. My confidence is growing but, again, there's still lots to be working on and I still try and come up to the ring when I can to practise. I do a lot of charity gigs as well to keep the momentum going in between sales. I did the Leger Legends auction at Doncaster which raises money for the Injured Jockeys Fund. They're actually great fun to do because it's a completely different kettle of fish. You need to be sharp as you are selling different items and you're not trying to be funny but, on the other hand, it shouldn't be boring. They're definitely good to do.

Does it ever become daunting? For a lot of sellers, how their horse gets on in the ring can make or break their year and, if it doesn't go right, you could be an easy person to blame.

Exactly. You're in control of the room and, no matter what the vendor has done or what the purchaser is planning on doing, you're the bridge, you're the broker. It is high pressure stuff and I try not to think about it like that. When I tend to think about a high valued lot or a lot where I know the vendor is expecting to get well paid, that can sometimes hold you back in a way, so I try to treat every lot the same, no matter the status. Obviously I do take it all into account but, in general, I try to treat them all the same in a bid to alleviate the pressure and it's something that works well for me. My hope is to always come off the rostrum after giving it everything I can and hopefully there's a happy vendor at the end of it all.

In terms of satisfaction, I'd say selling I'm A Gambler for 850,000gns at the horses-in-training sale last year and taking bids from some of the biggest players in the game from the rostrum outside would rank pretty highly?

Selling I'm A Gambler was brilliant because he exceeded both mine and Charlie Johnston's expectations. It was a great experience and one I am sure I will not forget! During Book 1, I was out on the podium. You've got some big players outside and some of them can be discreet bidders so it's all about knowing when they're bidding and being careful not to miss a bid. Thinking about it, it's actually brilliant practice for what I will hopefully in time encounter up on the rostrum at Book 1 and in the Sceptre Sessions. That is the main aim; to sell at Book 1 and the Sceptre Sessions in time.

Along with I'm A Gambler, are there any other moments that stick out in the memory bank?

Well the I'm A Gambler one is funny because, when you watch the video back, it looks as though I've pulled my hamstring atop of the rostrum. When the Najd Stud team bid again, I dropped down as though I'd pulled my hamstring, as I wasn't expecting it. It got circulated on social media and, while it was funny, I'm not sure it was the most professional moment! That sticks out but there have been a few slips of the tongue at times as well.

Of course, auctioneering is not the only string to your bow here at Tattersalls. You've climbed the ladder pretty fast and have become a recognisable and friendly face of the company.

Working hard and gaining as much experience as possible is the priority. There are so many different facets to the business and I have a lot to learn. I do the stabling for the yearling sales and other sales bar December, where I do a lot of organising and help run the Sceptre Sessions, for example. That is great. We target the high-quality fillies and mares and try to give people an incentive to sell at the Sceptre Sessions. I have enjoyed that and it is very rewarding when you see the Sceptre Sessions producing such strong results for the vendors who support Tattersalls. There's lots to the role and I try to get over to other sales to represent the company. Yearling and breeze-up inspections are another big part of it. That's a process I'm looking forward to doing more of next year.

You touched on the fact you've spent time with Simon Crisford, did the Irish National Stud Course and have worked in Australia as well. You've crammed a lot in for a 25-year-old.

I just wanted to get as much experience in different areas of the industry as possible. I spent a year with Simon as a pupil assistant and learned all things hands on. There were a few great guys there, including Les Reynolds, the travelling head lad. He basically showed me the ropes and took me under his wing. I don't come from a hands-on background in horses–my Dad is in equine insurance and my grandfather is Tim Richards, who was a racing journalist–but the passion was always there. The hands-on experience is what I was keen to get and Simon was brilliant for giving me advice. It made sense to me to kick on and bypass university, plus the Irish National Stud course was a great experience and I met some great mates there. After that, I went to work for Arrowfield Stud in Australia, so it was all packed into a short space of time.

You're obviously very ambitious.

I like to think that I am the type of person that when I put my mind to something I put all my focus and energy into it and try to be the best I can be at whatever it is. I was not the best at school but always loved sport and rugby was my passion. I ended up being captain for the first team and thankfully I didn't disgrace myself in my final exams either. I have always been very driven and I definitely have a competitive side. It certainly shows when I play golf with my dad and brother!

With that in mind, where would you see yourself in five years' time?

Hopefully selling at Book 1 and the Sceptre Sessions and being a senior inspector for Tattersalls. I don't know what will come after that but I will continue to work on honing my craft as an auctioneer and working within the company at Tattersalls.

Did you ever think of race commentating?

It's funny you say that because Richard Pugh, a Director of Tattersalls Ireland and a race commentator said the same to me and Matt Hall. He said that the two of us should think about giving it a go. Look, I wouldn't say no to it. I can remember being put on the spot to commentate on the Hennessy, or races like that in front of friends, and it's mind-blowingly difficult. It's not something I'd rule out!

In terms of theatre and drama, I'd imagine there are few better places to work than at Tattersalls.

It's an amazing place. Everybody goes back to Marsha or Alcohol Free selling here but even some of the smaller lots are fascinating. I'll never forget Alastair [Pim, fellow auctioneer] selling the Kingman half-sister to Chaldean for a million. The way he got to a million was seriously impressive. Sometimes that theatre is seriously engrossing.

Being an auctioneer yourself, you can probably appreciate the craft better than anyone on the big days.

Definitely. It is a skill being able to get up there and remember everything you need to know about each horse, their physicality, their pedigree, the instructions from the vendor and spotting bids all whilst keeping your patter and potentially having one of the rostrum spotters giving you instructions at the same time. And then you have the added pressure of the big days when you know you have a lot who is the highlight. At the end of the day Tattersalls works on behalf of the vendor and for most it is their livelihood, so you want to do the best you can for them and get the result they want. I remember coming up to Tattersalls when I was younger and being so impressed by the auctioneers. Not only were they good at their job, but they were also entertaining whilst keeping their nerve and staying calm under pressure on the big lots. It is something I have tried to take into account with my own style and I try to let my energy and enthusiasm show from the rostrum. I am lucky that I have learnt from some of the best auctioneers in the game!

The post Freddie McKibbin Q&A: ‘My Auctioneering Style Is Lots Of Energy’ appeared first on TDN | Thoroughbred Daily News | Horse Racing News, Results and Video | Thoroughbred Breeding and Auctions.

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Phil D’Amato Q&A: ‘You Don’t Have To Spend A Lot To Find A Going Global’

One of the finest turf trainers in America, Phil D'Amato has done exceptionally well with his European imports in recent years, highlighted by Grade I winner Going Global and more recently American Oaks scorer Rhea Moon.

In this week's Q&A with Brian Sheerin, D'Amato explained how, with the help of Niall Dalton, Craig Rounsefell and BBA Ireland's Michael Donohoe, he has built one of the most competitive stables in America.

Read about his approach to finding 'diamonds in the rough' on a budget, his training methods and much more.

Brian Sheerin: You do extremely well with your imports from Britain and Ireland. What is it that you look for in form horses when you go about recruiting them from Europe?

Phil D'Amato: There are a number of factors. First and foremost, you need a horse that you think will handle a firm turf course and you can gauge that by the tracks that they have been running at in Europe and how they are handling that. If you don't have a good gauge on how they would handle the American turf, then you can check how the pedigree has done in the States and if that suggests they are prone to do better on firm ground. Number two, they definitely need a turn of foot. All turf races over here, from the quarter pole home, you need to show a good turn of foot. I definitely like to see that over horses who are more staying types in Europe. Horses who go to the lead in Europe and try to make all, those horses don't tend to do well in America, you need something with acceleration. Those are the big things for us. Conformation is another. I don't think conformation plays as big a part in Europe, especially with the amount of homebreds that race and the forgiving training surfaces, but in the States, conformation plays a much bigger role as our courses are not as forgiving. You need a horse with good conformation over here, one that's going to hit the ground square, so that it will be able to stay sound for you.

You've built up a top-class recruitment team with Michael Donohoe and Niall Dalton coming up with a lot of the goods.

You have to give them a lot of credit. I've also had a lot of good luck with Craig Rounsefell-all of those gentlemen know what to look for. They are trying to find the diamond in the rough and prove that you don't have to spend a lot of money to find a Going Global (Ire) (Mehmas {Ire}).They have good connections with the trainers and know who the sellers are. There are a lot of sellers in Britain and Ireland, as that's how a lot of these guys make their money given the prize-money over there, and not everyone can train for a Sheikh or somebody who is very wealthy. They need to trade so, in that respect, Niall, Michael and Craig know the people who will lead them the right way. They continue to buy horses from those people.

And is it purely form horses that you buy from Europe or have you ever dipped your toe into breeze-up or even yearling markets?

We have bought a breeze-up horse or two but it's mostly horses who have run. I prefer to see a horse who has run at least twice and I am not a big fan of the horses who have run just once. To me, it seems like the horses who have run at least twice or more, they come over here to America and they seem to be hardier horses. You have a better handle on them and they tend to cope with the training better as well. They are better than the one-off horse who's run third or fourth. I just like horses who have been able to show their form a couple of times but, the flip side of that means that, getting to see a bit more often means that you have to pay that bit more. It has its pluses and minuses.

I'd love to know what expectations you had for Going Global when you bought her after she won a Dundalk nursery off a mark of 70. Could you ever have envisaged that she'd improve to the level that she has?

Well, you know what, Michael Donohoe is really good friends with her former trainer Michael Halford, and we had bought horses from him before. Going Global had gotten sick previously and hadn't run well before she won at Dundalk but they had good reasons as to why she hadn't been running well. We knew that story coming into the race and then, when she did produce at Dundalk, it was time to strike. We had a little bit of extra insight into buying her and Halford liked the way that filly had been training for a while so he guided us in the right direction. That was the story there.

You touched on the fact that a lot of trainers over here in Ireland where I am based, their business model accounts for trading horses, and Michael Halford would be up there with one of the best at that. Are there certain trainers you like to return to?

We have a good rapport with a lot of people and there are a lot of people who lead us the right way. It's the people who are going to leave a little extra in the tank who we are interested in buying off. That's the way I train my horses and I don't like to have them fully cranked first-time up. I like to let them develop through their races and I try to buy my horses off like-minded people. You need to try and buy a horse who is likely to continue to develop over here in the States. You know the yards that are crack first-time out specialists and I try to stay away from those trainers because all of their horses usually show everything they have first-time out. It's the guys who leave a little extra in the tank and like to let them develop race to race, those are the guys we like working with.

What would be the key differences between the European horses compared to the American-breds who you have grown up with?

Size and conformation are the big things. To buy a dirt horse versus a grass horse, it's apples and oranges. You are looking at the horse totally differently. A dirt horse has a big thick bone, and a big hind end, gaskins and forearms, that can withstand training and pushing through the dirt. Your turf horse is a bit more angular, lighter of body and bone, just a little bit more agile. You need to put two different caps on when you are looking to buy a dirt horse versus a grass horse.

And when it comes to acclimatising a European import, what is your approach to that?

They are all different and all treated as individuals. I like to gradually build them up and let them tell me when they are ready to do more and start breezing. Some horses take a month before you breeze them and others are ready to go within two weeks. They are all different. You can't put them in a cookie-cutter training style as they all needed to be treated differently.

When you go down through the imports that you have done well with in America, there are no Galileos, Frankels or Dubawis in there, which makes the achievements all the more impressive.

We mostly have horses by mid-range stallions, because we can afford them. We're not looking to buy a Galileo (Ire), Frankel (GB) or Dubawi (Ire) for half a million dollars, our budget is much less than that. Those are the stallions we look at, the ones that produce the goods but who are within our price range. We bought horses by Mehmas at the right time but now that stallion is moving up the ladder. It's all about leaving that to Michael and Niall, who are great at that. What's an advantage is, they work the yearling sales as well and watch these horses develop through all of the different yards. They have keen insights from when they hit the sales ground right up until when they race. That's a big advantage.

American Oaks winner Rhea Moon (Ire) (Starspangledbanner {Aus}) is the latest star European import to grab the headlines for your stable. How did she come on your radar? In many ways she was quite unexposed given she'd only had the two starts in Ireland for Ken Condon.

She ran a really good second to a Juddmonte colt [Straight Answer (GB) (Kodiac {GB})] on her second start at the Curragh and that horse came out and won a stakes race not too long afterwards. She had good sneaky form in that she came out of a live race and ran a good second. Again, she came from a good yard that develops them the right way instead of having them cranked to the gills first-time out, so she looked a nice prospect. We went after her and thankfully we were able to get her.

You touched on how important a turn of foot is on the American turf racing scene. She showed that when winning the Oaks. Where next for her now?

She's in steady training right now and we will probably run her some time in March or April with a view towards a prep for the Gamely S., that's a Grade I, which we have in late April. Hopefully that will launch her 4-year-old campaign and lead us towards the Breeders' Cup in November.

Given the prize-money situation in Britain and Ireland, have you had much interaction with owners from this part of the world who are interested in placing their horses in training directly with you rather than selling them abroad?

I actually have started to get overseas owners going that route as opposed to me buying them. We'll see how that goes. I got a filly sent to me, called With Love (GB) (Territories {Ire}), who is owned by Atomic Racing in Ireland.

Look at a filly like Bellabel (Ire) (Belardo {Ire}); she won a race worth €6,490 on her final start for Jessica Harrington in Ireland but has won almost $200,000 in America which is borderline insane.

She was another nice pick by Michael Donohoe. He has many clients who have horses in training with Jessica and she recommended us to buy her as the owner wanted to sell. We were in the right place at the right time. We gave her a little break and she'll also be back towards the end of the month. Hopefully she's another nice prospect for us.

Has it been a conscious decision for you to concentrate on turf racing in America over the dirt?

The concentration on turf has really come down to budget. In America, if you want to compete with the Bob Bafferts, Todd Pletchers and Steve Asmussens of the world, it costs a lot of money. Those gentlemen have many million-dollar yearlings to work with and, to try and compete against that, you have to have a ginormous budget. I am lucky to have good owners with good budgets but nowhere near that. You can buy a good European horse for a fifth or a tenth of that price. It seems that, in turf racing, too, these horses seem to have a little more longevity and can be campaigned for an extra year or two. The racing is really more about that last quarter burst over the punishing grind from start to finish on dirt. That's why these horses seem to last longer and get the chance to develop into stakes horses or, for the fillies, into breeding prospects.

Where do you see the future of turf racing in America? It seems to be expanding and growing so it could be an exciting position to be in.

I really see that. I see an expansion of turf racing across the country for many of those reasons; the longevity of the horses and people seem to like the last quarter mile compared to dirt races that can be decided right out of the gate sometimes. People like to enjoy seeing their horses run over a long period of time and so turf racing fits that category.

Could we ever see a Phil D'Amato-trained runner at Royal Ascot?

One day. That definitely is a dream. I know Wesley Ward has been successful at Royal Ascot. You definitely need to bring the right horse but, one day, it would be a dream for me to do something like that.

The post Phil D’Amato Q&A: ‘You Don’t Have To Spend A Lot To Find A Going Global’ appeared first on TDN | Thoroughbred Daily News | Horse Racing News, Results and Video | Thoroughbred Breeding and Auctions.

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‘The First Thing We Do Every Year Is Make Sure We Don’t Go Out Of Business’

Widely considered as one of the shrewdest trainers in Britain, Stuart Williams discusses the major issues facing middle-to-lower-tier operators as well as his concerns for the wider industry as a whole in this week's Starfield Stud-sponsored Q&A.

Brian Sheerin: The first thing that pops up when you log on to your website is a quote from Timeform, which describes you as, 'A conjurer of a trainer. One who can transform an apparently moderate animal into a frequent winner.' Another compliment that could be paid to you is that few trainers would contemplate trying to improve one that you trained.

Stuart Williams: To be honest, there are not many who have done better when they have left. There are plenty who have won races but they don't usually improve so it's something I'm proud of. We try to get the best out of every horse we have.

BS: What is the secret to rejuvenating and doing so well with the already-tried horses who make up the lion's share of your stable?

SW: We try to train each horse individually. It's easier to do that when you have a smaller yard like ours which is never home to more than 50 horses at any given time. It's easier for us to train them individually and we try to work out what suits each horse individually and make it work best in our routine. It's one of those things where I have gone down this route because I had to in order to survive. We started training with one horse. We've never had a big influx of yearlings so we've been forced to stock our stable with the older horses and the used horses at the sales. We've tried to do the best we can with each horse. It's all about trying to work out what makes each horse tick and trying to make them as happy as possible. If you can get them fit and healthy, they will produce it on the racetrack.

BS: So was it a case of needs must or was it a conscious decision to try and target the middle-tier horses at the sales in the hope of improving them?

SW: A bit of both, really. It has changed a lot in that the foreign market has become so strong and now the used horses are very hard to buy at the sales. In reality, 80% of the horses-in-training are rated below 80, so that's the standard of the breed and it has been that way for about 40 years. If we are looking at 80% of the horse population being rated less than 80 and everyone, including myself, wanting to operate in the top 20%, that's hard to do when you can only afford to buy a few yearlings every year. You are not going to beat the odds very often and get many of those yearlings rated above 80 if you are only buying a handful of them. If you want to be able to run at the big meetings and to compete for decent prize-money, you can go to the horses-in-training sales. Ten years ago, we could go and buy a 4-year-old and upwards rated 80 for 20 or 30 grand. If we could just improve it a little bit, we had a horse rated 90 who had a chance of winning a decent pot on a Saturday afternoon.

BS: What impact has the strength of the sales had on your business? It's obviously been a good avenue to trade horses for some people but the flip side of that is recruiting fresh talent has become arduous.

SW: The market has changed. We have a different funding system in Britain where they are basically relying on eight or more runners in all of these races and it's turning into quite a big problem because the fixture list has grown exponentially since the introduction of these all-weather tracks, and the horses who filled that programme are now being sold. It is not just the top horses, either, as it is the second- and even third-tier horses who are being sold abroad. If you looked at the horses-in-training sales from last year, you'd be amazed by how many horses were sold to continue their careers abroad.

BS: What is life at the coalface as a trainer in Britain like right now?

SW: To be honest, I think it's very difficult. It has never been a lucrative business, apart from if you are operating at the very top, and it's the same for the jockeys. The top 15 to 20 jockeys are making a good living whereas the rest of them are just about breaking even. It's the same for the trainers. It amazes me how many trainers manage to survive. It's a great lifestyle but it's very hard work and you put everything into it. I love it and I don't know how to do anything else. But it's becoming even more difficult to survive now than it was 15 or 20 years ago.

BS: In the face of that, I see you said you are expanding and are looking for more staff on Twitter.

SW: Everyone is short of staff. Any yard in Newmarket, there's a vacancy. John Gosden, Godolphin, everyone. We've changed our working practices to try and improve the work-life balance. None of my staff do a complete full week any week. We try to balance that against the fact that we need to look after these horses 24/7.

BS: Is that your biggest headache as a trainer, the recruiting and retaining of staff?

SW: Staff is a huge problem for everyone. I've been in Newmarket for a long time. When they had the stable lads strike, the wages doubled overnight, which resulted in a huge influx of Irish people coming over to work in England. Very few Irish people work in England now. There's more money, less racing and less hours by working in Ireland. The jockeys come over, and Ross Coakley and Oisin Orr are a good example of very good jockeys who haven't quite made it at the top tier of Irish racing doing very well over here, but very few staff come to work in England. In the 1980s, we'd a huge influx of females getting into the sport and, while they still come, it's not in the same numbers. In 2004 we'd a huge influx of Asian workers but now they can't come anymore. We have an indigenous population who are encouraged to stay on at school until at least 19 or 20 years of age and not many have ever ridden ponies as kids. Most of them are too big to ride Flat horses as well. There's a perfect storm developing where there aren't the people there to do the job.

BS: Obviously there's going to be turnover in the training ranks, as there is with any profession, but I know you were sad to see Chris Wall call time on his career.

SW: We're going down the route of the super trainer where everyone wants to have their horse with William Haggas, John Gosden, Roger Varian or the new kid on the block. Really good trainers like Chris, who is a smashing fella, saw his numbers dwindle down through the years. It's hard to see the logic behind any owner, who may have two or three horses, sending them to a big stable. You are going to be such a small fish in a big pond. When my owners want to ring up and find out about one of their horses, they ring me, they don't ring one of the assistants, the head lad or an agent. I think that should count for something. You have people like Rae Guest, George Margarson, Chris Wall, who wouldn't have had big strings, but proved that they are perfectly capable of training group horses once they have the right ammunition.

BS: How do you go about leveling the playing field?

SW: They brought in the one meeting a day rule for jockeys. Some of them like it and others don't but, for safety reasons, I think that was a good idea. A lot of the time, we have Lingfield on a Friday afternoon and Wolverhampton later that evening. It was a mad rush to get up the M6 on a Friday afternoon but everyone was doing it. If you could bring in something to help trainers in a similar way, I don't think that would be a bad thing. I'm not sure how feasible this would be but perhaps limiting trainers to a certain number would be a start. Two years ago, for example, the Gosdens had 253 horses in the horses-in-training book and that excluded 2-year-olds. They've 191 boxes at Clarehavan so you know that all of those horses are not stabled there. A lot of the horses are based at pre-training facilities and come in when they are ready. If you were the BHA, you could possibly say that, 'we are licensing you to train from this many boxes,' plus a few in and out of training. If you wanted to train 500 horses, which some do, you'd need close to 500 boxes. That would make it slightly more difficult.

BS: The role of the satellite trainer has never been as important to the super powers.

SW: And they require staff as well. The pre-training yards have got the staff and they don't have the overheads or the restrictions or the BHA inspecting their yards. It's a lot cheaper for them to run their business. I was talking to Malcolm Bastard about this recently, as one of my owners has a couple of horses down there with him, and he would make far more in a year pre-training than I would make as a trainer.

BS: A lot of guys' backs are against the wall and would say that, outside the top bracket, it's impossible to make a living as a trainer if you are not a trader. So what is it that entices so many people to soldier on?

SW: Listen, I enjoy it. I enjoy being with the horses and talking with the owner and going racing. I left school when I was 14 and have never known anything else. I've always wanted to be in racing and, I've been doing it so long, I probably wouldn't be able to do anything else! It's difficult and the first thing we do every year is try and make sure we don't go out of business.

BS: What measures do you take to ensure that doesn't happen?

SW: We don't go on fantastically-expensive holidays and we don't have a lavish lifestyle. We make sure we break even on the training fees and try to vet all of the owners who come to us in order to make sure we are not left with any bad debts. We've been very lucky in that regard and most of the people pay on time. We put a lot of work into that on a daily basis and the last thing you want is someone not paying at the end of the month. We also try to be as cute as we can with the placement of horses in order to win as much prize-money as we can for the owners and ourselves.

BS: We could be here all night talking about prize-money. It's obviously quite bad in Britain, as it is in Ireland, compared to all of the other major racing jurisdictions. You associate your stable as being well able to land a gamble. Has that propped up the business in light of the terrible prize-money?

SW: When we first started training, it did. It's not part of the business anymore because it's almost impossible to get any kind of money on these days. When I first started training, we built landing touches on horses into the business plan if we could hopefully identify a few horses who we felt could win and then we'd back them accordingly on the right days. But now we just try and place the horses where they have their best possible chance to win. It annoys me a little bit that people brand me as a gambling trainer. If you land a gamble, you get praised on one side for knowing the time of day but it's a black mark on the other side because some owners won't want to go to you because they'll think all you want to do is try and land gambles all of the time. That's not the case at all. We do the best we can with each individual horse.

BS: As you said in the Racing Post the other day, it has become a lot harder to get big money on. You also spoke about the impact the affordability checks are having on the industry.

SW: I think we need a radical change. Our two main income streams are from the owners and the punters. At the moment in Britain, our owners are recovering between six and eight pence in the pound on average. The money spent by punters comes back through the levy and the media rights and comes back into racing through different avenues. In the gross profits era that we're in at the moment, we need punters to lose. So, your owners are losing 92 to 94 pence in the pound and your second biggest customer is the punter and you want him to lose as well. That's a crazy way to run a business. It's just bonkers.

We need to somehow get nearer to the Australian model. It's more accessible now than it's ever been because the big bookmakers are mostly owned by American companies that are casino-based. They are the same people who own the big bookmakers in Australia. If we could convince the government that we are fighting this overseas drain with both hands tied behind our back right now, because of the funding system, we could hopefully get them to legislate in favour of an Australian-based system. I think it would be hugely beneficial to us and might also bring the on-course market back to life because there'd be bigger bets struck on the track.

That's one thing that is unique about British and Irish racing, is the bookmakers on the racecourse shouting the odds. It's part of the experience and is an exciting place to be. You go racing in France, the prize-money is better but there's four men and a dog sitting there watching the smaller meetings with no atmosphere at all. If we get the product, the prize-money and the competition right, then get people betting on it, then it all snowballs into a higher level altogether.

BS: You've spent time all over the world. Did you ever flirt with the idea of basing yourself somewhere other than Britain?

SW: I always think to myself that I should have stayed in Australia! I might retire out there one day. I was with Bart Cummings out there and I can remember going to Brisbane for the Carnival and basing one of our horses there with a small trainer who had a row of eight boxes behind his house in a suburb of Brisbane about a mile from the track. We used to walk the horses to the track every day and just work them like that. Well, that wouldn't be a bad retirement, having three or four horses in the back garden. He used to take them to the track and pay a work rider to ride them for him. That would appeal to me when I get too old to do it here! One day.

BS: Hopefully that won't come anytime soon as you've proved yourself to be one of the shrewdest operators in Britain down through the years. But if I was to ask you what provided you with your biggest kick in the game, what would you say?

SW: We had a horse when we first started training, Concer Un (GB) (Lord Bud {GB}), who was owned by a farmer who couldn't get 500 pounds for him at the sales. He was out of a mare who won once from as many starts, in a bumper, and William Haggas had trained it. Concer Un won a hatful of races for us, including a big handicap at the Ebor meeting at York, where he broke the track record and beat a horse who went on to finish second at the Breeders' Cup. To do that with a horse who couldn't get sold in the ring for 500 pounds provided us with a great buzz. We won 10 handicaps in the same season with Sendintank (GB) (Halling) and he won four handicaps in the same week in two separate weeks. That was pretty good as well.

BS: Finally, what does 2023 look like for you?

SW: We've got some nice horses and have picked up some new owners. George Gil is one of them, and he runs Opulence Thoroughbreds. He asked if I'd buy him some yearlings a couple of years ago and some of those look quite promising. We bought 14 in total in 2021. I trained seven of those and Roger Varian trained the rest. They didn't buy as many last year and they went to a few different trainers but the syndicate is growing and is modeled on Middleham Park. They've been fairly successful and, luckily, a few of the horses look quite promising so it's all quite positive.

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