Tag: Conversations

Haggas and Boughey: The Deadly Duo on Buying, Selling and Winning

George Boughey is rarely seen without his right-hand man, Sam Haggas, and the pair sat down with Brian Sheerin at the Goffs UK Premier Yearling Sale at Doncaster this week.

   From making the Classic breakthrough with Cachet in the 1,000 Guineas, to recruiting Missed The Cut and Inver Park for relatively small money to win at Royal Ascot, Boughey and Haggas provide a fascinating insight to what goes on behind the scenes at one of the most impressive outfits in Britain and Ireland. 

Brian Sheerin: I saw this week that you are expanding–you have come a long way in a short space of time. 

George Boughey: We're still in the same place but just rented some more boxes out the back and built a hole through the fence between the two yards so we've just over 100 boxes now with that new yard. What we're doing is still the same but having those extra boxes is great. There have been possible chances to move to bigger yards but we're very happy doing what we're doing and it seems to be working. 

BS: Would a move to a big yard be on the horizon? It's no secret that you are one of the most ambitious people in the game.

GB: I've never been one to make quick decisions. I don't really like to jump at things and prefer to apply a pretty measured consideration to what I do. There's not many yards in Newmarket that have the capacity for us to move on to. I'm pretty intent on staying in Newmarket for the moment as it seems to be working for us. I've been very lucky to have assembled a great team of staff. To up sticks and move is a big thing, especially when you are growing. When you are stable, it's a different matter, but our business is changing as we go as we are buying and selling at every sale. If the right yard became available, it would be something to think about but that opportunity hasn't presented itself as of yet. 

BS: There have been plenty of examples of trainers experiencing massive growth spurts but they are unable to sustain it. There is definitely an element of getting too big too quickly for some people in this game. How have you managed to sustain your massive growth in such a short period yet maintain, and actually improve, results?

GB: The biggest thing for us is that we have employed the right people. We've just taken on a new person to run the new yard and my head lad, Adi Rogers, worked for Sir Michael Stoute and Sir Henry Cecil for years. We worked together in Hugo's [Palmer] and he came and worked for me when I decided to set up on my own. In the past few weeks, I've been to Arqana, York and now Doncaster, but the place keeps rolling on. We can do so much over the phone these days and the training charts are all online for me as well. I have good people; good farriers, vets, riders, feed people and general staff. That's what has enabled us to grow.

BS: When you burst onto the scene, you won a lot of 2-year-old races and clearly had them fit and ready. A lot of people were quick to pigeon-hole you as a trainer of early 2-year-olds. For that reason, did it give you extra satisfaction when Cachet (Ire) (Aclaim {Ire}) trained on and won the 1,000 Guineas as it proved your doubters wrong?

GB: One hundred per cent. And also, one of the Dixon brothers picked up on it the other day on Racing TV and I said it in an interview with him. If I wanted to bang out a load of 2-year-old winners, I'd be buying 20 yearlings here at Donny this week. The horse that I want to train is the nicer type of horse, not just early 2-year-olds, but one who can get you to the Classics. When I started, I realised we needed to buy some sharp, short-runners to go and win with, because otherwise, you get forgotten. If you just buy the slow-maturing horse, which is ultimately the one I want to train, nobody knows about you. You end up training for three years before you get going. We had a nice filly win on debut the other day by chance. They are not asked to win on debut and we've only had two first-time out juvenile winners this year. They win on their second and third starts and, because we have a strong pool of horses running for us now, we have been able to apply a different approach. 

 

BS: So it's interesting to hear that you were quite conscious of all of that when you were starting out. You were aware that people were labelling you as a trainer of early 2-year-olds. 

GB: I bought more older horses than 2-year-old starting out and Sam was a huge part of that. You could say we got lucky at the start because we bought four horses and three of them won. A few of them racked up sequences as well and we continue to do that. It's a conscious effort. For example, we'll be buying at the August Sale next week. We've had 75 winners this year and a lot of them have been sourced at the tried sales. We've bought some decent unraced horses from those sales as well and we will continue to do that. That's just as big of a part of our operation. I don't just want to be a trainer of early whizz bang 2-year-olds. I'd have gone a different way if I wanted to do that. If I wanted to do that, I don't think I'd have set up in Newmarket. 

BS: On Sam's involvement in the operation. I found it fascinating to watch the two of you in action at the July Sale at Newmarket. I saw Sam walking around with a folder full of speed figures. Can you provide us with some insight on that?

Sam Haggas: I look for quite a few things. I like looking at different stats, metrics and I just try not to miss anything. I believe that, the more information you have at your disposal, the better informed your decision will be when it comes to buying one. I just try not to miss anything and put a lot of things together about each horse in the catalogue. 

GB: But the one that's changed in the past three years, and granted it's a small sample size, but I used to have an opinion at the horses-in-training sales. Now, I don't even look at the catalogue. Sam does all of that and he will then give me a list of a sixth of the sale, or whatever it happens to be, and then I will go and look at them. We used to buy horses that I didn't like as a physical just because they came up well on Sam's stats and speed figures. Invariably, what we worked out was, the ones who did not have good physicals were anomalies, in that they put up a freak figure somewhere. They were never the successful ones that we bought so, now, what we do is, I have to like the physical before we buy them. You know, I have to look at them every day at home in training and what we've found is, the poor physicals, even on Sam's numbers, have been the ones who rarely work out. I like to have a sound and sturdy horse. We have won over £1.5 million in prize-money this season, including in France, and that is probably because I like to run my horses a lot. Oscula (Ire) (Galileo Gold {GB}) has won something like £300,000 in prize-money this year alone so they need to be able to take their racing. I don't do a huge amount at home with them but, matching the physicals with Sam's data, that has been a huge turn for us. 

BS: Whose decision has it been to run Oscula 20 times this season? Yourself or Nick Bradley's [owner]?

GB: Probably Nick for the 20th! I was pretty keen for most of them. I was very keen to back up quickly at Goodwood when she won the Group 3 there. My girlfriend Laura, who rides Oscula at home, was pretty keen as well. Oscula is actually the heaviest she's ever been right now. I thought she was cooked when I picked her up off the sand in Saudi Arabia but she responded incredibly well. She went for a good break after that-she never really had one before-and she developed. She's not an overly big horse but she's just looked better and better all summer. She literally spends most of her time in the paddock and goes for a trot-she only had the saddle on her back about four times in between three runs. 

BS: There are some excellent trainer-agent combinations, for example Archie Watson has Tom Biggs. What sets you two apart?

Sam Haggas: There's also Jason Kelly and David O'Meara, Joseph O'Brien and Kevin Blake, Ado McGuinness and Stephen Thorne. Personally, I have been lucky to work with a few very diligent people who have helped me get the list to where it needs to be for George. Equally, George is very disciplined and he has a very good team around him. When a horse goes through the ring at a H-I-T sale, we have a value on every one of them. We bid to their value and, if we miss, it's a case of them making too much and us walking away. There's a bit of that involved and discipline as well. We have good people on our side in every facet of the operation and I don't think that there's one secret.

GB: I think the valuing of the horses is a big thing. It would be great to go out and buy every horse that we want but we've never spent a lot of money–I don't think we've ever bought anything for more than £50,000. I think discipline is important. We could go and buy these 103-rated horses but they're just too obvious and anyone can buy those.

BS: Have you found yourselves re-evaluating budgets at the yearling sales yet because Arqana was extremely competitive and there doesn't appear to be anything slipping through the net here at the Premier Yearling Sale.

SH: The thing with H-I-T Sales is, the range of what sort of value a horse has is much more narrow compared to yearlings. You have a fair idea about what you are going to be paying for a horse in training.

GB: Yea, at those sales you don't have a horse that you think will make £25,000 go on to make £125,000, but that can happen here. If that happens at the H-I-T Sale, you're doing things wrong. 

SH: There's a bit more rationale to the H-I-T sales.

GB: What we buy now has changed to what we bought when we started out. Before, we were just trying to buy a horse to win a race. The first order I ever gave Sam was to go out and find me a horse to win a 0-50 handicap. He found every single horse rated 47-50 who could run between seven furlongs and a mile-and-a-quarter. I still have the What's App messages between myself and Sam on this, when he came back to me and said, 'I think the one you want is Three C'S (Ire) (Kodiac {GB}). He's won six or seven races for us and we paid next to nothing for him privately. He was the type of horse we were trying to buy back then. Now, we're trying to buy a horse to win the Buckingham Palace at Royal Ascot, which is what Sam did. He bought Inver Park (GB) (Pivotal {GB}) without seeing him but he came out so well on his figures that he just had to have him. I can remember sitting in my kitchen when we bought him. We had to give about 10 grand more than we wanted to but Sam wouldn't let me not buy him. It's very rare that Sam pushes me to buy a horse and, when we bought him, he said Inver Park would go on and win the Buckingham Palace. We gelded him and then worked backwards from the race. Amazingly, he had to go all the way up to Hamilton to win at 8-11 to win under a penalty to guarantee that he'd get in at Ascot. William Buick flew up there to ride that horse especially for us and it won us the race at Ascot because we snuck in. For that to work out as Sam said it would, it was just amazing.

BS: Missed The Cut (Quality Road) was also an inspired buy.

SH: If George is going to give me the credit for Inver Park, I'm going to have to give him the credit for Missed The Cut. He was unraced. A completely blank canvass so, how much data can you gather on an unraced horse? He came out of his box and, straight away, George declared him the NAP of the sale. That was that. The horse walked into the ring and I don't think George was going to be beaten.

GB: He was so big and backward. He was a much different physical back then to what he is now. In actual fact, he was a big, raw slop of a thing, really. It was the middle of February and I can remember, he took three strides out of his box and I told them to pop him back in. Sam was saying, 'you can't do that,' but he was such a lovely horse that you could see it straight away. He was a $400,000 [Shadwell-bought] foal at Keeneland in November 2019 and I would have been happy to give more than we did [40,000 gns]. We bought Diamond Ranger (Ire) (Kodiac {GB}) a couple of lots before that and he's won two and is rated 91. There was a big gap in the market and I can remember saying to Sam on the Shadwell horses, 'we need to buy as many of these as we can.' They had twice the pedigrees of any of these horses here at Donny today, yet they cost half the price. Diamond Ranger cost us 26,000gns. He was a 110,000gns yearling at Book 1 at Tattersalls in 2020. 

BS: Those results at Ascot must be up there with the best days you both have had in racing. I know Sam has had good touches in the past, including with a filly he sourced from Ireland, Miss O Connor (Ire) (Roderic O'Connor {Ire}), but those Ascot triumphs must have been something different.

SH: It was right up there with my best days in racing, for sure. To be there on the day, and to have the owners there as well, it was amazing. These were inexpensive horses winning at the biggest meeting in the world. 

GB: Missed The Cut and Inver Park are amazingly owned by great friends of ours. Ed Babington owns a share of Missed The Cut and he also has a share in Inver Park. Charlie Rosier and Allison Jackson are also big supporters of the yard. They've cobbled together for horses a few times and, yes they've had winners which has been great, but to put their top hats on and win races at Royal Ascot, that's their dream. It's also our dream so it's great that we could live it. We're lucky to have lots of horses to have a chance to do it but, to actually go and do it was great. 

BS: There has been a lot of doom and gloom in the media about trainers being forced to retire due to an inability to make the game pay. The flipside of that is, there are people like yourself coming through showing that, yes, while this is an extremely difficult profession to make a living at, it can be done.

GB: We had 87 winners across Europe last year and, at the start of this season, I looked at the pool of horses we had and thought, 'how the hell are we going to get anywhere near that.' But, with Sam's help, I mean every single sale, we're active. We keep buying and selling horses. If I started and finished the year with the same pool of horses, I wouldn't do anything like the numbers that we do. You have to keep the wheel turning and, yes, there are times when it's tricky for us. The old-fashioned thing to do is, you buy a yearling around this time of year and you see everyone again at the next yearling sale the following autumn. That's a long way away from what we do. A lot of trainers see H-I-T sales as clearouts but we use them to re-stock. It's an opportunity to elevate the quality in your yard.

BS: But it's also an opportunity for you to let go of horses you feel have reached their ceiling?

GB: We've actually sold a lot of winners there over the past few years. That's a big thing for us. I want people to feel like they can buy winners from us. In the August Sale next week, there's absolute winners waiting to happen for the next person. Paddy Brunty (Ire) (Dandy Man {Ire}) and Rock Girl (Ire) (Profitable {Ire}) for example, there's a bundle of them. They'll be winning races in three weeks' time but we need to be turning them over and putting money back in our owners' pockets rather than running the horses into the ground. 

BS: There's not many trainers who would be so commercially driven at your level.

GB: I wouldn't say so. You see it all of the time, a lot of the horses at these H-I-T sales are taken out at the last minute. That's what makes it so frustrating for Sam. You see a horse two weeks out from the sales and you want to buy it. Then, two days before the sale, it's scratched because trainers want to keep a hold of them. We have a different view.

BS: Sam, you may have cut your teeth with the form horses, but you've become equally as busy at the yearling sales. Do you enjoy that?

SH: I'd love to do more on the yearling sales. First and foremost, horses with form is the priority and I want to keep it that way. I can't let that slip. But I'd love to do more on the yearling side of things. Equally, it's a different sphere but I'm interested in both arenas. I don't see why a data and form approach can't be applied to a certain degree to these yearling sales. They may just provide us with something of an edge or just something extra to what we are seeing with just our eyes. 

BS: We all know the Mark Johnston approach to buying yearlings at these sales. Is yours different or what is your approach?

SH: There may not be something printed in the catalogue page and it will be my job to know about that. There could be many underappreciated things there and I will bring it all to the table for George to consider. 

GB: There's been a number of times when Sam has flagged up something. He'd say to me, 'you better go and see that,' and I wouldn't have had it on the list. He might see a horse run well at Carlisle or some place, and it could look like a potentially nice horse or a future winner, and it may be an update that not many people will have spotted. It's another tool. I certainly would miss that if I was going looking by myself. 

BS: Speaking about the horses in your yard, where can we expect to see Missed The Cut next? Were you disappointed with him in the G2 Prix Guillaume d'Ornano at Deauville?

GB: He's still very raw and, I said it before the race, it's very rare that a horse goes from winning a maiden to running in the top group races, which is what he did in France. He did come up a little bit short but he was possibly racing on the worst part of the track that day and finished off his race a little flat. We won the following race with Oscula and, after telling Ryan Moore to come down the middle the previous race on Missed The Cut, I told him to hug the rail on Oscula, and it worked. Anything that came off the rail seemed to be treading water so I don't think that helped us. But the winner, Al Hakeem (GB) (Siyouni {Fr}), is a very good horse and we retain a lot of faith in Missed The Cut. He's come a long way already and is owned by some very patient people so we'll do the right thing by him. 

BS: And is there a plan for Cachet?

GB: The Breeders' Cup is the plan and she's training away. She's a Classic winner and you can't take that away from her. We'll have a meeting with Highclere soon and make a plan but things are up in the air a little bit at the moment. 

BS: I find it quite interesting that Sam must look at things through a different prism than most given his background working with Paddy Power. 

SH: I definitely learned a lot at Paddy Power and I apply a lot of what I learned there to bloodstock. It was a very good education. There were some talented people in that building in Dublin and I learned a lot during my two years over there. There's an ex-colleague of mine at Paddy Power's, a guy called Feidhlim Cunningham, and he's done very well with Gavin Cromwell. They've had a lot of success together. There's a skillset that you gained at Paddy Power that was definitely applicable to bloodstock.

BS: And what about backing them? Everyone knows the Boughey yard is to be feared when the money arrives. That must provide you both with a lot of fun when it goes well?

GB: It is a bit of fun but, the more horses you have, the more it distorts your view. I used to punt, I mean it makes the world go around but now I have over 100 horses in training so we don't do it as much. Yes, if we fancy one, we might support it but a lot of the time, I think the gambles on our horses comes more from the general public. When they snowball, they snowball.

The post Haggas and Boughey: The Deadly Duo on Buying, Selling and Winning appeared first on TDN | Thoroughbred Daily News | Horse Racing News, Results and Video | Thoroughbred Breeding and Auctions.

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‘Few Make A Living Doing What They Love – I am Lucky To Be One Of Them’

He has been crowned British racing's best broadcaster of the year an astounding eight times but Nick Luck remains as hungry as ever.

From talking about the success of his daily podcast, the Nick Luck Daily Podcast, revealing that he will make his Melbourne Cup debut this year and providing his own thoughts on the major issues affecting British racing, Luck makes for fascinating reading in this week's Q&A.

Brian Sheerin: You sat down with Lee Mottershead for the Big Read in the Racing Post almost two years ago. A lot has changed in that time as the Nick Luck Daily Podcast, which you had just launched at the time, has emerged as being required listening for anyone in racing or breeding. 

Nick Luck: When I did that interview with Lee, we were emerging from lockdown and there were still a lot of restrictions so, sitting down and doing the podcast every day was challenging enough but I had the time to do it. When life started to get back to normal, there was as much racing as there's ever been, and there was something of an explosion of material online. But people's lives were getting busier again. The execution of the podcast became that bit more difficult. At that point, the question was, can we keep it up? I had got myself into a position where I was in sufficiently deep and I am really glad that I did keep going because, with the help of the small team who are absolutely crucial to me, it's gone okay.

BS: I have this vision in my head of you cramming like a teenager about to sit a college exam before you cover a range of different topics on the show but I gather it all comes pretty natural to you and you can do everything from memory?

NL: I do have quite a retentive memory but I don't think that I am alone in that, especially with people who are working in an industry that they love. With people working in horse racing and bloodstock, something that they are passionate about, they tend to find that their brain will retain a lot of information. When it's something you love, it tends to sit there more readily than if it was something that you found was a bit of a chore. I do have a good memory and I can think about a lot of different things at the one time but the podcast is no different than what the wider racing media is doing because you can never plan too much. You never quite know what is going to drop and when it will happen. The medium allows you that bit of agility and you've got to play up to that. I could sit there and plan everything the night before the podcast but I try and leave the real meaty content to as late as I can possibly get away with. I am always thinking about it–it's always there bubbling away, wherever I am or whatever I'm doing–but I couldn't tell you what tomorrow's podcast is going to be called or what the lead news item will be. I can tell you who will be on the podcast but that's about as far as I can go. 

BS: You obviously adopt the same principles to live television?

NL: Yes and no. For example, say I am doing a big interview on the Sunday programme for Racing TV. You've got to book your guests some way in advance of and you'd be thinking about them-the sort of person that they are, what to make of the person or personality that they've become and you really just try and get underneath that. I am someone who tends to ruminate on it for some period of time. I am not someone who sits down and writes out a series of precise questions because I want to have a good all-round understanding of who that person is and, when they are actually sitting there in front of me, be light enough on my feet to go with the conversation and not be too linear. I want to be able to be responsive. I think it's all about being prepared for anything but not so much that you become overprepared and rigid. That's just the way I like to work. 

BS: I can hear one of your young daughters in the background making her presence felt!

NL: If you listen to the podcast carefully enough, you'll pick up all sorts of background noise. My desk is right beside the front door in our house and, when I started doing the podcast, I attempted to close all the doors and make things as quiet as possible. I soon realised that it was completely pointless. If I was going to impose this ridiculous commitment upon my family, well then I just had to suck it up and carry on with whatever background noise was going on. That's completely fine by me-it's more authentic anyway. You are allowing people into your life. I am usually intruding into theirs. Quite often, a trainer will ask me to call them back if they're on the gallops because the sound of wind, rain or hooves in the background. I always say, 'no, it's fine,' as it makes it a bit more real. Sometimes, some of the best interviews we do and some of the best items we have got on there are when somebody is in the middle of something else. They might even let you have an interesting snippet of information when they're only half-thinking of the questions!

BS: I'd put it to you that some people will find it hard to believe that you do have a young family and a life outside of racing because, the one thing people say when your name is mentioned is work ethic. I know you're just back from Saratoga for example. It's a lot of balls to be juggling at once, including family life, so how do you manage everything?

NL: I don't know to be honest. I never think too far ahead and sometimes that can be an advantage as you never get too stressed about your schedule or how busy you might be in the coming weeks or months. You just try to concentrate on the job at hand and make sure everybody is alright. I don't have an awful lot of time for hobbies now, that is for sure. But when you are working in a sport and an industry where it's your passion, well then that compensates for that. When I am at home, I want to be spending as much time with Laura and the girls as I possibly can. I'm getting a bit better at planning holiday time. 

BS: I remember you said that losing the terrestrial television gig with Channel 4 made you even more hungry to attack new opportunities. Nobody could accuse you of failing to do that and I saw NBC's coverage of the Whitney at Saratoga generated over one million viewers. 

NL: I am coming up to 20 years in the job. I started at the end of October in 2002 and, genuinely, I have never reached a point where I felt, 'I don't want to do this anymore, I want to try something else.' Contracts have come and contracts have gone and I have shifted between networks but I have never once thought about packing it all in and doing something different. There's so much variety in racing and it keeps you fresh. I'm going to broadcast the Melbourne Cup for the first time this year. That will be my first time doing that and I'm excited about it. I'm slightly terrified about the logistics of getting to Melbourne and then Breeders' Cup in Kentucky right off the back of it, but my NBC producer Lindsay Schanzer has been very encouraging. And making the racing world a little bit smaller, which is something that you guys do [TDN] on a daily basis, was one of the driving reasons behind doing the podcast. You have that opportunity now to do what you simply couldn't do 20 years ago. For very little outlay, you can speak to anybody in the world and try to bring people from all over the globe a little bit closer. People must feel much better connected with racing internationally now more so than ever. 

BS: Another thing you have brought to the podcast is the breaking of news stories. Often, it's the podcast that leads the agenda on a given day. Is that something you set out to do, not only react to news but to break it?

NL: It wasn't necessarily a goal of mine starting out. I was just trying to produce a nice audio digest of the day's news and events. Also, it is a luxury being your own editor and having the freedom to chase what you might be interested in. Then you just have to hope that it will be reflected by the people who tune in. Needless to say, we are very lucky with the small group of regular contributors who are always providing insight. I conceived of it as a nice, sharp digest of the racing news that you could listen to while you are walking the dog, having a bath or whatever you're doing wherever you are in the world. That's what I was going for. But I think the scope for the podcast is pretty limitless and, part of the beauty of it, is because there are so many dimensions to the sport. It's very unlikely that one podcast or newspaper can cover everything. There's always something new for somebody to cover every day. As I said, I never set out to be the person who breaks all the news, but there will always be something there for you. For example, this morning the TDN had a nice story about the sales at Deauville, the Racing Post led with the Paddy Power story, Matt Chapman tweeted about Maljoom (GB) (Caravagio) missing the Prix Jacques le Marois and I was on the phone to Philippa Cooper who told me that she was winding down her breeding operation. I actually rang Philippa about something completely different and that happened to come out. The more people you talk to, the more likely these stories will drop into your lap. 

BS: What about the times when it didn't go so well; are there many interviews you'd like a second crack at?

NL: I rang Andre Fabre to ask him for a quote on Lester Piggott. I've got to say, because I am an English journalist, he is normally very friendly and he was on this occasion. However, I found myself asking him some fairly stupid questions. He kindly, but very firmly told me, 'I don't mean to be mean, but I am afraid the questions that you are asking me are completely pointless.' There was a very long pause before I said merci and quietly put the phone down. It was lucky I had the luxury of editing that bit out of although it may have given people more of a laugh if I'd left it there. 

BS: Well you are a braver man than me for interviewing him in the first place. 

NL: To that point, he was very charming about it and I think I had asked him a couple of clunkers. But the beauty about this sport is, everyone will answer their phone and, if they don't, they will send you a message saying they don't feel like talking or they may ask to arrange a different time or whatever it is. The access is really good. 

BS: I agree but sometimes you earn that access. When I think of the late Barney Curley, I think of the interview he gave you on Luck On Sunday. Patrick Veitch was another. 

NL: The credit for that Barney Curley interview largely goes to Barney himself, as he clearly had a distinct idea in his own mind about what he wanted to say and what he wanted to get off his chest. There were things that he was thinking about for years and he wanted to say them out loud as he knew he wasn't very well. So, there was a slight feel of the last will and testament about it and I just happened to be there at the right time to do the interview. However, my producer Bruce Clements had been curating that relationship for a little while and I always had a reasonably good understanding with Barney. I knew he wanted to do it, it was just a question of when. That's part of the job; you build a level of respect with people over time and you hope that respect is reciprocated. That doesn't mean you go around sucking up to people, not at all, but you build a trust so that when you do want to do something with that person if they are in the news for whatever reason, you might be in the right slot. Genuinely, people who know me know that I am quite social, love chatting and I am naturally very interested in people's lives and what makes them tick. Hopefully that's the driver behind what I am doing. 

BS: Can you let us in on who you're working on next? Do you have a list of ideal candidates you'd like to interview?

NL: There are people I would like to interview who I haven't had on before but, whether they will ever do it, I don't know. The nice thing about it now is that there are people who will sometimes approach us and say that they would like to be on the show. 

BS: As well as your extensive television work, you also have skin in the game and are involved in the breeding side of things. Can you tell us about that?

NL: My own little mare hasn't exactly been a startling success! Her first runner was a winner and I walked around thinking I was a cross between John Magnier and Marcel Boussac! The barren three and a half years that followed have swiftly eradicated that notion. I am full of admiration for anyone who can go in at any level and make any sort of success out of breeding because it's a good game for humbling you. I helped out my late mother, who we sadly lost this year, with the jumps mares. Ironically, that came good latterly with some of her progeny making a lot of money albeit for other people. We still have Grainne Ni Maille (GB) [the dam of Madmansgame (GB) (Blue Bresil {Fr}) and Gentlemansgame (GB) (Gentlewave {GB})] and she has a filly foal at foot. I'd like to carry that on for my mum. We own Grainne Ni Maille in partnership with Yorton Stud. It's funny, Dave Futter said we should keep the Blue Bresil filly out of Grainne Ni Maille as a foal but I said a bird in the hand is better than two in the ditch. We sold her for £16,500 at Goffs in January 2020 but she made €195,000 at the Land Rover Sale in June. That shows what kind of a judge I am! The filly foal is a full-sister to Gentlemansgame so hopefully she can do well for us. 

BS: We hear a lot of doom and gloom about racing in Britain and Ireland right now. You're normally the one pitching the questions as you take the pulse on the industry on an almost-daily basis but what are your own thoughts?

NL: I have been considering this while looking at some of the data that's around on the number of horses there are in training, how many races there are, races not filling, various ideas about races being chopped off the bottom end and the Peter Savill plan for the industry. We have been encouraging people to breed a lot of horses for a very long time and it's a very reductive solution to turn around and say 'let's just chop the races off at the bottom.' On top of everything else, you then present yourself with an enormous horse welfare problem if that's the solution. Yes, you need to take an intuitive approach to the fixture list to ensure that races will fill but it's not as straightforward as just cutting fixtures. I feel that the basic principle of the Savill plan is the right one in that you are trying to make the top end of your sport the envy of the world. You get that slimmer part of that pyramid much more intense, much more competitive and enjoyable, and then it becomes something you can sell and people will always be able to anticipate it. Just slicing off the bottom end will not in itself create that environment. You then need to incentivise the racecourses to put on the most attractive opportunities possible for the rest of the horse population and actually make things easier. People are in this sport because they want to win. They love their Class 6 horse dearly, but they'll love it even more if they're winning races with it so that they can go and reinvest in the sport. I'm not sure that I buy this idea by removing a whole load of “bad races” that you automatically make the top any better. You have to treat the different parts of the pyramid accordingly. 

BS: So we need to bolster the product but not at the detriment of lower grade racing.

NL: We have encouraged the production of a lot of horses in Britain and Ireland. We need to have enough opportunities to cater for these horses and also a robust enough plan in place to cater for their aftercare when their racing days are over. Or, we need to breed fewer horses–it is not feasible to complain we have too many moderate horses while at the same time thinking it's just fine to cover 250 low to medium grade mares a season with cheap and cheerful stallions. What are you expecting?

BS: You mentioned earlier that you never thought in over 20 years working in racing about doing anything different. I know you may have been advised to do something different at one point in time but you remain fascinated by the sport. 

NL: There are things I would have loved to have done and there are other areas of television that I am sure would give me a huge thrill. Foremost, I love the business of broadcasting, otherwise I wouldn't have been in it for so long. It's not to say I wouldn't enjoy doing other things and wouldn't look at doing other things but I find it impossible to think about walking away from horse racing. There are very few people who make a living at something they love doing and I am lucky to be one of them.

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Powerful Owner Peter Brant Talks Learning From Mistakes, Sottsass And More

   One of racing's biggest supporters, Peter Brant's colours can be spotted not only in his home country of America, but in Britain, Ireland and France. 

   The renowned owner-breeder, who spent over 20 years away from racing before returning with a bang in 2016, has quickly re-established his operation and in 2020 he reached the pinnacle when Sottsass carried his familiar double green silks to victory in the Prix de l'Arc de Triomphe.

   With a full-brother to Sottsass catalogued for the August Yearling Sale at Arqana, Brant makes for a timely subject for this week's Q&A where he talks all things racing and breeding.

Brian Sheerin: Your colours have been carried by some equine stars. From Triptych to Gulch and more recently Sistercharlie (Ire) (Myboycharlie {Ire}) and Sottsass (Fr). Have you got a favourite?

Peter Brant: I guess Sistercharlie would be the one. Obviously I had Waya, who was inducted into the Hall of Fame recently, and she was one of the first really great racehorses that we had. We had Just A Game (GB) (Tarboosh), who was a champion and has races named after her, Gulch, and I own lots of good horses in partnership with people but I have to say Sistercharlie was very special. She won seven Grade Is within a year and a half and overcame two cases of pneumonia during that period. She was incredible. She's now in foal to Dubawi (Ire) and is over with Coolmore in Ireland. For both my wife and I, she has a very special place in our hearts.

BS: You went to Dubawi with her? Not a bad choice!

PB: She showed speed and stamina and, with Dubawi, I thought it would give us a chance of getting a Classic horse. We're very excited about that.

 

BS: Do you keep a lot of mares at Coolmore and what is the breakdown of your broodmare band?

PB: We have about 65 broodmares and it's split roughly half and half between America and in Coolmore Ireland. The majority of our turf mares are in Ireland, although some are in the States, while most of the dirt mares are at Claiborne Farm in Kentucky.

BS: What was the initial lure to European racing? 

PB: The Americans have this thing about turf horses and how they can't mix with dirt horses. Of course, it's all rubbish. I've had great success buying fillies in Europe, bringing them to the United States and in either the first or second generation, getting a great dirt horse. I bred Thunder Gulch and, not only that, but I bred his dam [Line Of Thunder]. What happened was, I bought a mare called Shoot A Line (GB) (High Line {GB}) in England. She had been second in the Gold Cup, won the Cheshire Oaks and lots of other good races, and I brought her back to America to run her. She didn't really do well over here but I bred her to Storm Bird, the result of which was Line Of Thunder, who ended up being the dam of Thunder Gulch. He won the GI Kentucky Derby and was a really great horse. There's a Kentucky Derby winner whose second dam came over from Europe. 

BS: It goes back to the old saying, just because it hasn't been done doesn't mean it can't be done. 

PB: At some point, breeders in Kentucky are going to realise that they have to pay attention to racing on the grass. Turf racing is growing, as are the field sizes, and there's no reason why breeders should be ignoring it. Take Flightline (Tapit) for example, he's got grass in him. It's all about vigour. We need to get new kinds of blood in and, for me, I'm interested in the European stallions. People ask why I go to Europe to breed and it's because owners in Europe, and the Middle East, they've been coming over to the United States for the past 40 years and buying our best yearlings. Those great stallions are coming from that blood that was once here. 

BS: Where do you think of turf racing in America is right now? There is an expanding programme full of lucrative races but there seems to be little interest in turf stallions over there. 

PB: I think it's going to change. If you have a stable of horses you want to run, if you don't have any turf horses, you're going to miss a lot of the best races. Pretty soon, you're going to have at least 50%–if not more–of the programme being grass racing in America. It's a better surface to run on, more natural, and the attrition rate on the dirt is much higher.

BS: You stand Demarchelier (GB), a son of Dubawi, at Claiborne Farm in Kentucky. How has he been received and have you sent many mares to him?

PB: He's been doing very well. I have bred to him quite a bit and he has been getting between 100 and 110 mares a year, so he has a very good chance. If you give a stallion over 60 mares a year they have a really good chance of making it but the idea of breeding 200 mares to a horse, I'm not a big fan of that. The maximum for me would be 140 or 150 mares a season, which is where Sottsass (Fr) is. I just think you should concentrate on the mares a little more because, a lot of the stallions these days, their percentage of stakes winners is smaller than they were back in the day. They didn't breed to as many mares back then, but a horse like Northern Dancer had 20% stakes winners, Mr. Prospector was 18% and today, the best sire might have 9%.

BS: You must be very excited about Sottsass. I understand you've sent a lot of good mares to him. 

PB: Yes I have. His first crop are now weanlings and he has had some very good-looking foals. It's the same with Demarchelier. They all look like him. They are both stamping their stock. I really wanted to stand Demarchelier because he was three-from-three heading into the GI Belmont Derby, where he unfortunately broke down. The winner of the Belmont Derby, Henley's Joy, Demarchelier had beaten him in the GIII Pennine Ridge S. I thought he was a high-class horse and we were expecting big things from him before he got injured. That's why I really wanted to stand him at stud. The people at Claiborne Farm really believed in him and I've bred 10 or 12 mares to him every year now. We gave a very good opportunity to breeders to buy shares in him for a low price if they committed to breed to him, and I think they are going to be very happy. I would be surprised if he didn't do well. 

BS: Getting back to Sottsass, would you be able to tell me some of the mares you sent him?

PB: I bred a lot of stakes-winning mares to him. What I do is, I give the stallion mares over a three-year period and the best mares will probably be sent to him in year two and three so that the quality is maintained and that he doesn't fall off. You know how sometimes you send a young stallion good mares in the first year and then sometimes they go off in the second and third year, that's not good for a horse. I'm very confident that he's got some good mares. I bred the dam of Speak Of The Devil (Fr) [Moranda (Fr) (Indian Rocket {GB})] and many more. He's got some really good mares. 

BS: The family has been unbelievably good to you. We've already mentioned Sistercharlie, Sottsass and as well as that, you did well with My Sister Nat (Fr) (Acclamation {GB}).

PB: Starlet's Sister (Ire) (Galileo {Ire}) has got to be one of the best broodmares in the world. Look at My Sister Nat, she was beaten a whisker at the Breeders' Cup last year. She's actually in foal to Wootton Bassett (GB). Don't forget, Sistercharlie was the first foal, then there was Sottsass and My Sister Nat. Now I see Pure Dignity (GB) (Dubawi {Ire}) broke her maiden pretty impressively for Roger Varian. I know that the 2-year-old by Dubawi is with Jean-Claude Rouget in Deauville and they like him as well. 

BS: And the question on everybody's lips is will you look at the brother to Sottsass (lot 154) that will be on offer at Arqana next week?

PB: I've heard that he's nice and I'm looking forward to travelling over to see the horse. I'm also a little bit of a believer in the fact that Mrs Sullivan has seven sons but only had one John L!

BS: It's shaping up to be a brilliant sale with siblings to Treve (Fr), Wings Of Eagles (Fr), Native Trail (GB) and Sealiway (Fr) also on offer.

PB: It is. I think the catalogue is really good. Of course, now we have Saratoga coming up as well, which has been lucky for me. I like the people at Arqana because they are straight-shooters and very realistic. 

BS: We saw The Antarctic (Ire) (Dark Angel {Ire}), a horse that you have a share in, winning a Group 3 at Deauville during the week. Have you anything to look forward to at Deauville next weekend?

PB: There's a horse that we like very much, Epic Poet (Ire) (Lope De Vega {Ire}), and he will run. He won a listed race for Jean-Claude Rouget and is three from four. We're also very excited about Francesco Clemente (Ire) (Dubawi {Ire}), who is in training with John Gosden, and the plan for him is to run in the Great Voltigeur at York next. He's won all three of his starts and won his last race by nine lengths. He's by Dubawi out of the great mare, Justlookdontouch (Ire) (Galileo {Ire}), who I bought [for 1.2m guineas] at the Ballymacoll dispersal at the December Mares Sale at Tattersalls in December 2017.

BS: I see that both horses hold entries in the Arc….

PB: I think that any time you enter in the Arc, it's ambitious, and for me, it's one of the most difficult races in the world to win. But I don't enter the horses, the trainers do, so I guess there's an outside chance that they could get there. I don't know if they have the experience to go for a race like that but maybe next year. We'll leave it up to the trainers. 

BS: You mentioned about the success you've enjoyed bringing European horses back to America. We saw Lemista (Ire) (Raven's Pass), who won a Group 2 when in training with Ger Lyons in Ireland, landing a Grade III contest at Monmouth Park recently. Could we see more European runners making the switch in the coming months?

PB: I think Dr Zempf (GB) (Dark Angel {Ire}) could come over, purely because Ger Lyons suggested we do that. Ger thinks he's suited to American racing and I try to listen to my trainers. Like Ger, John Gosden has told me that certain horses would do well in America and he was proved right when we brought them back here. I think the plan will be for Dr Zempf to join Chad Brown later this year and we've got many more in our barn right now that came from Jean-Claude Rouget. 

BS: Speaking of European horses, what is the plan for the Aidan O'Brien-trained Stone Age (Ire) (Galileo {Ire})?

PB: Stone Age is running in the Saratoga Derby and has already shipped over. He was third in the Belmont Derby, where he ran into a lot of trouble, and Aidan's plan is to try an American jockey on him next time, so John Velazquez will be aboard.

BS: You obviously retain a lot of faith in Stone Age? He looked potentially top-class when he won his Derby Trial at Leopardstown back in May.

PB: My wife and I flew over for the Derby this year and enjoyed a great day out. We got to walk the course with Aidan and that was a great experience. I was actually in shock when I saw the course and how difficult and undulating it is at Epsom. It looked to me that Stone Age just didn't stay on the day and I wasn't that disappointed. To my eyes, he looked the best horse in the Belmont Derby, only he just got stopped in his run and didn't have much luck. We'll see how he does at Saratoga on his next start.

BS: How do you find working with the likes of Aidan O'Brien, Jean-Claude Rouget and Chad Brown? 

PB: I've also got Joseph O'Brien and Ger Lyons. I like the trainers in Europe. I really like their attitude towards training 2-year-olds. They like giving horses experience at two and I'm not big on 2-year-old racing apart from the fact that it gets horses prepared for their 3-year-old campaign. In a sense, if you want a runner in the Kentucky Derby, history shows you that you need a 2-year-old. At the very least you need a horse who's had a few starts at two. There are always issues with horses when they're young, but it never seems to be as bad in Europe. I have a higher percentage of 2-year-olds running in Europe than I do in America.

BS: It's funny you say that because we were at Ballydoyle for the Derby press morning in May and somebody asked Aidan if Stone Age's emergence as a genuine Epsom candidate was surprising given the horse never managed to win at two. Aidan's response to that was, he could have gotten the horse to win at two if he wanted to, but it was always about the future with this horse.

PB: My experience with Aidan over the past four years has just been incredible. I like Aidan so much. He is one of the greatest horsemen ever and I have nothing but the utmost respect for him. I am having more horses with Chad Brown as well and he's meticulous. It's all about finding the talent in his barn–it doesn't matter if it's a $50,000 horse or a $1-million horse. He's also concentrating on the dirt now so hopefully he'll be the coming star in America. We have some great trainers working with us.

BS: You're obviously a hugely successful businessman. Is there anything you've learned from your trainers that you've carried over to your own line of work?

PB: Somebody told me once, so many successful businessmen get into racing but, as soon as they enter the sport, the check their brain in with their coat! I always thought it was a great saying. You could be a brilliant businessman but, once you get into the horse business, you don't know the mane from the tail. Of course, you learn things in terms of business that you apply to anything that you do but, if you don't pay attention in horse racing, you shouldn't be in the game. I was in racing for 21 years at a high level before I got out of it for some time and, the experience and the mistakes that I made back then, I try not to make them now. It's impossible not to make mistakes in horse racing as it's not science–it's just something you get a feel for. There's too many opportunities to make the wrong decisions and you've got to just live it. When you go to these sales and spend a lot of money, what are your chances of having a good horse?

BS: And what would you say the biggest mistakes you've made were?

PB: I would say paying a big price for a late maturing 3-year-old, who was already a stakes winner in Europe, thinking it would excel in America and it didn't. The horse winds up with an attitude, I've got to geld him, that's probably the biggest mistake I've made, paying top dollar for a well-bred 3-year-old with good form in Europe. But it can happen. On the other hand, I bought a yearling who turned out to be Sottsass, which was a very speculative thing to do. Every time you buy a yearling, what are the chances that it will go on to win the Arc? You've got to have luck. I only bought him for one reason–that he was Sistercharlie's brother. That was the only smart part of the decision. The rest was pure luck.

BS: And when you do come across a horse as good as Sottsass, what does it mean?

PB: It meant the world. I was at home in Connecticut and watched the race with my wife. We couldn't travel because of Covid but it didn't even matter to me as I'd been to the Arc many times before and I knew what it meant to me. It was the race of a lifetime. I cherish it.

 

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‘We Are Going To Get Relegated If We Keep Selling Our Best Strikers’

   There have been a lot of football analogies in racing this week. Most have centered around a hypothetical situation whereby the Kevin De Bruynes or the Erling Haalands of this world were leaving the Premier League for sunnier-and more lucrative pay packets-in foreign leagues. 

   For all the Manchester City fans out there, you can relax, as the analogy was simply fictional. However, there is nothing fictional about the mass exodus of talent facing British and Irish racing.

   Ger Lyons is better qualified than most to speak about the problem. Lyons, who has held a training licence for over 25 years, has built his impressive Glenburnie Stables in County Meath into one of the best training facilities in Ireland.

   He secured a breakthrough Classic success in 2020 when Siskin stormed to Irish 2,000 Guineas glory at the Curragh while Even So provided the stable with its second when landing the Irish Oaks in the same season. 

   From losing some of his best prospects to the international market, poor prize-money and what he describes as a lack of opportunities for good horses in Ireland, Lyons makes for a fascinating interviewee in this week's Q&A.

Brian Sheerin: You have trained 41 winners this season–only Aidan and Joseph O'Brien have managed a greater tally at this juncture–and you have already surpassed the €1 million mark in prize-money at Glenburnie. Everything is on course for another big season.

Ger Lyons: Everything is going steady away. We haven't run many 2-year-olds so far this season and I have had to be patient with them. The quality seems to be good as we are holding our own in stakes races which has always been the objective for us. 

BS: While things have been going well on the track, I know from speaking with you at length just over a month ago that you have major concerns for Irish racing. You also described yourself as “a pre-trainer” for international handlers due to the exodus of high-class horses to the foreign market. Would you care to expand on that?

GL: Sadly, our prize-money is very ordinary and what I would describe as the 'good horse' is being neglected, hence why they are all being sold to continue their careers abroad. From the top owners right down the ranks, no-one is able to turn down Australia, Hong Kong or America when they come calling. It's disappointing to have to sell our best prospects but the economics of it all makes sense. Not only that, but the owners can see the earning power for their horses in America and we have seen countless examples of horses being moved out there in pursuit of greater prize-money. Masen (GB) (Kingman {GB}) is the most recent horse to leave my yard for America. He has won over $300,000 in three runs in America but would have struggled to earn €100,000 in Ireland this season–and that's if he won three races over here, the chances of which would have been very slim as the opportunities just aren't there. 

BS: Mark Johnston echoed the same opinion in last week's Q&A. He revealed that the owners of Royal Patronage (Fr) (Wootton Bassett {GB}), a Group 2-winning 2-year-old who reached a rating of 113 in his 3-year-old campaign, decided to move the colt to America in a bid to win more prize-money. Johnston was keen to point out that he didn't blame the owners but admitted the drain on resources is becoming hard to contend with as a trainer. Do you feel the same?

GL: I certainly don't blame the owners as we all trade. However, if we keep selling our best horses then we are going to be left racing what's left over and our product will lessen every year. If people don't want to watch our best, how will they come and watch lesser quality races and races with small field sizes? This trend needs to be addressed quickly as we are already a long way down a very slippery slope.

BS: Here's the bit that doesn't make sense for me; Mutasarref (GB) (Dark Angel {Ire}) is a horse who you bought for 95,000gns from Dermot Weld at the Horses-in-Training Sale last October. He was obviously well-bought given he's won three races for you–at Leopardstown, the Curragh and last week at Naas–and has improved 25lbs in the process. However, he's picked up less than €30,000 for those wins at premier tracks and only qualified for that Naas race by virtue of the fact he hasn't won a race worth €15,000 or more. 

GL: He's a good example of a good horse not being rewarded with the prize-money he deserves to be winning. He is now rated 105 after that Naas win but look at what he has earned–it's pathetic. Good horses should be rewarded yet we seem to reward mediocrity. In what world should a stakes-placed horse earn the same as a low-grade handicapper operating in the 45-65 bracket? It does here and that's wrong. The strategy [from Horse Racing Ireland] seems to be all about minimum prize-money levels whereas I would have the lower-rated horses earning a maximum figure and it wouldn't exceed €5,000. No handicapper should be earning more than a stakes horse. It's not long ago that a certain rating, say in the 70s, wouldn't get you into a premier handicap. Now it will, which shows how far the standard is dropping. Not only that but, if you are going to reward mediocrity, that promotes cheating but that is another can of worms that I won't open!

BS: There was a story in The Times on Wednesday about how some leading figures in British racing are pushing for a restructuring of the sport that would result in a greater slice of prize-money being channeled to the elite level. It may not be a popular viewpoint but I gather it's one you would agree with?

GL: I was looking at the figures published at the end of last year and it showed that the average prize-money on offer for the premier handicaps was more than that for listed and Group 3 races which is not only astonishing but, in my opinion, wrong. I am also a big believer that our maidens need to be worth more money. You can only win your maiden once and you should be rewarded for doing so, especially because, in order to win a maiden in Ireland, you need to be rated in the mid-80s or above on average. So, when you win your maiden, that is obviously going to limit your chances when you step into premier handicaps. Therefore, the maidens should carry more prize-money. 

BS: You mentioned last month that the notion of prize-money in Ireland being strong was a myth. It's hard to argue against that viewpoint when you look at Slan Abhaile (Ire) (Territories {Ire}), who finished fourth in the G3 Anglesey S. and picked up just €2,750 for her troubles. Had she finished third and picked up black-type, she would have won just €5,500, which is still less than what you'd get for winning a 0-65 handicap.

GL: That's exactly my point and to add insult to injury, if she had finished third and picked up that valuable black-type, that would have ruled her out of a lot of listed races going forward as the conditions of most of those races state that horses who placed in group races can't run. The Ingabelle S. on Irish Champions Weekend is certainly one of those races so, while we were only beaten a head for black type in the Anglesey, I felt it was actually a good outcome as we still have the option of those listed races. But again, here is another example of the programme hindering the good horses whereas you can run your low-grade operator every day of the week if you want to.

BS: HRI released its six-month statistics last week. The figure that jumped out at me is that prize-money still hasn't risen to pre-pandemic levels despite the fact that HRI boss Suzanne Eade put prize-money at the top of her priority list when the budget was released in December. Not only that, but the Irish Derby, which is meant to be the flagship race of the season, carried a purse of €1m when it was worth  €1.5m before the pandemic in 2019. In actual fact, when High Chaparral (Ire) won the Irish Derby 20 years ago, the race was worth €300,000 more than what it was run for this year.

GL: That speaks for itself and I find they [HRI] try to dress up these reports to convince us that all is rosy in the garden but we are the ones on the playing field and we know the reality of the situation. Look, I was lucky to win two Classics in 2020 [the Irish 2,000 Guineas with Siskin and the Irish Oaks with Even So (Ire) (Camelot {GB})] and both races were worth just €145,000 each to the winner–I've won handicaps worth more. The Ebor for example, which we won with Mustajeer (GB) (Medicean {GB}), was worth €1m. By the way, both of my Classic winners were sold to go abroad! 

BS: You have made it clear that you have no interest in training horses below a certain standard. Given the lion's share of the horse population is rated 70 or less, I am interested to know how you go about weeding out the ones who don't make the grade. I know you are a big fan of claimers.

GL: Plenty of people will say, 'it's all right for Ger to say that,' but, like everybody, I do train plenty of low-grade horses–I just choose to move them on and concentrate on the quality. The claimers have been very successful for us and we need a minimum of one a week. Jim Gough claims a lot of my horses and has great fun with them. He actually came over and shook my hand at Naas last week and complimented me on not only supporting those races but for being realistic with price tags that I put on them as well. That allows him to claim them and enjoy them. Just because I don't want to train horses at that level doesn't mean I don't have them. I just choose to move them on. The authorities need to get their heads around the fact that there are hugely positive aspects to claimers and they need to be made more customer-friendly. I think that the claimers are a big addition to the programme and, if I had my way, I would replace a lot of the low-grade handicaps with claimers.

BS: There will also be people who read this and think, 'But Ger, if it wasn't for trading horses, Glenburnie would not have become the behemoth that it is now.' 

GL: At the start, horses were much cheaper to buy and the upside to trading them on was much greater. Nowadays, it's virtually impossible to buy the level of horse we were buying at one point for less than €50,000. There are always exceptions but in general the price of horses has escalated beyond all recognition which flies in the face of my prize-money argument.

BS: When you were starting out, and trading horses was necessary to survive, did you ever envisage a situation whereby, once you arrived at the top table, you would still be faced with the prospects of losing your best horses.

GL: In short, no. I always imagined it would be different when we got the good horses but times have changed and, as I said already, even the top owners are sellers now. Sure didn't Aidan [O'Brien] sell a Derby winner [Serpentine (Ire)] to Australia recently? It's very frustrating and I always use the football analogy in that we–and I mean Britain and Ireland here–are the team that keeps selling our best strikers. Sooner rather than later, we are going to get relegated.

BS: In the immediate future, you have some smart prospects to look forward to. Apricot Twist (Ire) (Expert Eye {GB}) looked a potential top-notcher on debut at Naas last week. Could we see her in the Ballyhane S. next Monday?

GL: She's lovely but the race could just come too soon as she only ran last week. I've done very little with her since but when there is a race with such good prize-money, it's imperative that we support it. Barry [Mahon, racing manager at Juddmonte] and I will discuss it and do the right thing by the filly first and foremost.

BS: You won the race last year with Sacred Bridge (GB) (Bated Breath {GB}) and, judging by the entries, have been keen to record back-to-back wins. What struck me about your entries is that some of them haven't even run yet so I am presuming you have kept a bit of powder dry for the second half of the season.

GS: We have. As I said, it's important to support such initiatives and hopefully I will have a few runners in the race. I've plenty of bullets to fire in the second part of the season as we have been very disciplined with the babies so far.

BS: It's one thing getting these well-bred fillies to train but another thing altogether managing them to fulfil their potential and achieve the valuable black type that they need before they go to the breeding sheds. You must get huge pleasure out of that aspect of the game?

GL: It's one of the great pleasures of this job and one that I very much enjoy. I always remind myself that these babies could be the dams of my next Classic winners, hopefully. One thing that I have learned that I didn't appreciate at the start is that an ounce of breeding is worth a ton of feeding.

BS: And speaking of high-class broodmare prospects, they don't come much better than Cairde Go Deo (Fr) (Camelot {GB}). I thought she ran a cracker in the Irish Oaks and would be excited to see her step up in trip in time. What are the plans for her?

GL: She's a sweetheart and is slowly developing into what we hoped she would be. I trained her mother and liked her and it was that reason that made me purchase Cairde Go Deo on behalf of Mark Dobbin. Also, the fact that she was by Camelot, the same sire as Even So, made it an easy decision. Hopefully she will stay in training at four, and yes, she should mature into a very good stayer.

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