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Tom Lacy: ‘I Looked Forward To Persian Force Running As If I Owned Him Myself’

Tom Lacy received a heartwarming reception at the Irish Thoroughbred Breeders' Association Awards last week. And rightly so. A legendary figure in Irish racing, Lacy rode 50 winners on the Flat and found only Arkle and Flyingbolt too good aboard Height Of Fashion in two Irish Grand Nationals.

As a trainer, Lacy sent out hundreds of winners from Rhode, County Offaly, including Ingabelle (GB), who later became a hugely important foundation mare at Ballylinch Stud.

His sons Barry and Tony rode multiple winners for the stable down through the years. It is also here where the late, great Pat Smullen honed his craft, before being crowned Irish champion jockey on nine separate occasions.

While Tony has relocated to America, where he holds the role of Vice President of Sales at Keeneland, Barry remains an integral part of the family breeding operation, and the pair combined to produce last year's leading 2-year-old Persian Force (Ire) (Mehmas {GB}) from €1,200 mare Vida Amorosa (Ire) (Lope De Vega {Ire}).

Persian Force has recently retired to Tally-Ho Stud, an operation that the Lacys have a close association with, and he will stand for €10,000 in his debut season.

Tom and Barry sat down with Brian Sheerin for this week's Starfield Stud-sponsored Q&A where they discussed their rollercoaster year with Persian Force, mating plans for Vida Amorosa and much more.

Brian Sheerin: It was a special night at the ITBA Awards with you taking home the small breeder of the year award for your exploits with Persian Force.

Tom Lacy: Persian Force was a small foal but, every day we went out to him, we could see him thriving. He grew into a lovely foal but he wasn't nearly as nice a foal as his brother [Gubbass (Ire)]. The main reason why we went back to Mehmas was because Gubbass was such a brilliant foal. When you think about it, we brought an unraced mare to an unproven stallion, who never had a runner before, and then went back to him the following year as well. We had two foals by a stallion who never had a runner. It could have been a disaster and, nine times out of 10 it would have been a disaster, but Mehmas has worked big time.

BS: You said before that you broke the golden rule in bringing an unproven mare to an unproven stallion.

TL: Absolutely. She was a well-bred mare, by Lope De Vega, and a fine big mare to match. Persian Force may not have been a big horse but he was full of courage. Jesus, he gave his best every time he ran. He'd put his head down, his ears back and he'd kill himself trying. That's number one for me, a horse who has a bit of fight and courage. But because the first foal was a good foal, I went back to Mehmas. Now, if it had been the other way round, and Persian Force came out first, I wouldn't have gone back. I was talking to Tony [O'Callaghan, of Tally-Ho Stud] who said he reckons Persian Force will end up being 16hh. You have to remember that these are only babies, they are only 2-year-olds when they are retired to stud, so there's plenty of growing in him. He's plenty big enough as he is but they reckon he'll grow, just like Mehmas did when he was retired to stud.

BS: So who owes who a drink at this stage?

Barry Lacy: Let's put it this way, when Mehmas went to stud first, it was the usual craic with everyone rolling in behind the first-season sire. But we didn't use Mehmas the first year he went to stud because we didn't have a mare suitable. It was in his second year at stud where we used him and got Gubbass and his third year when we got Persian Force. So, we used Mehmas for his smallest books of mares. Persian Force was always going to be Mehmas's best 2-year-old last year, because he'd very little else to run for him. He didn't cover huge books during Covid either, so, he could have a quiet year this year but then we're expecting to see him take off again next year and beyond because it's from 2021 when people started sending him the better quality mares on the €25,000 stud fee. So, when you're asking who owes who a drink, I'd say we're in front!

BS: Not too many people are in front of the O'Callaghans!

TL: Sure, we're always arguing. They came over here to look at Persian Force as a foal. The three boys-Tony, Roger and Henry-but they never said a word about the horse, whether he was good, bad or indifferent. They came in here and watched racing for the afternoon and never mentioned the horse any more but then went and paid €75,000 for him at the sales. They were going to buy him no matter what. They gave away the game because, when they say nothing, you know they like them. If they found any hole in Persian Force at all, you could be sure they'd have made a big thing about it! It was the same with Gubbass. They came over to look at him and never said a word, went to the sales and bought him as well. They are great men.

BS: Between Gubbass and Persian Force, you have had a lot of fun over the past few years.

BL: I'd say that one of the biggest kicks we have gotten in racing was watching Gubbass winning the Super Sprint S. at Haydock. He was in the Tattersalls Ireland September Yearling Sale, which took place at Newmarket because of Covid. I asked Roger [O'Callaghan] if we could sell him under the Tally-Ho banner and he said it was no problem if I went over and helped them out at the sale. The morning that we're loading up Gubbass to bring him over for the sale, a call comes through to say that Pat Smullen has sadly passed away. Pat had worked here for years and is obviously a local hero. Roger told me that, if I couldn't go to the sale, he would understand completely. I gave Roger my word that I'd help him out at the sale and it's not like I could go to the funeral in any case because of Covid so we continued with the plan. We thought he was a 50 grand yearling all day long but he only made 26 or 27 grand at the sale. We always felt that he was a racehorse so when he won first time up and then went on to the Super Sprint, we were delighted. The other thing is, we are a small operation and if we approached one of the bigger outfits to do a foal share, they'd just tell us to go away and not be annoying them. So what do you do? We can't go spending 30 or 40 grand on a proven sire as we had an unproven mare at the time and, the only thing we had to go by on the pedigree is that her half-sister Queen Of Power had an Acclamation colt who made €130,000 as a foal. He ended up being a good horse for Charlie Hills and is probably a major reason why we went to a son of Acclamation (GB) in Mehmas with Vida Amorosa (Ire).

BS: It's often the case that a mare catches fire just when she's gone too old. You don't have that problem with Vida Amorosa.

BL: She's just turned nine and is in foal to Starman (GB). It was this time last year when we were over in Tally-Ho and Roger said to me, 'Bar, this 2-year-old [Persian Force] could be the real deal.' I said, 'great, let's send the mare back to Mehmas.' He says, 'No, you won't, you'll go to Starman.' You hear it time and time again, that this horse is good and that horse is good, but you want to see them go and prove it. I thought, fine, let Persian Force prove he's a good one and, if he is as good as everyone says he is, then we can always go to Mehmas the following year.

BS: We're busy putting together our mating plans pieces in TDN, so what plans have ye made on that front?

BL: The bottom line is, if Vida Amorosa goes in foal to Mehmas, whether she has a filly or a colt, it doesn't matter. In actual fact, the filly is probably worth as much if not more to us. It's the logical choice. If you don't go to Mehmas, where do you go?

TL: As I said to Barry, you could go to Acclamation, the sire of Mehmas. It's the same line. He's had a great run as a sire.

BS: How many mares do you have to make mating plans for?

BL: We've only got two mares to foal this year, the smallest bunch we've ever had. We'd a lovely Danehill Dancer (Ire) mare, whose first foal ended up being Different Gravey (Ire) for Nicky Henderson, but she's retired now. She looked like she was going to be a very good National Hunt broodmare at one stage but it was a total disaster. We bought a lovely Australia (GB) mare last year but she died foaling. That's why we've the lowest number of mares we've ever had between retiring mares and just a bit of bad luck.

TL: Some of them just weren't up to scratch. They were only ordinary and you don't want to be breeding ordinary mares. If they're not good, they're a waste of time.

BS: Getting back to the awards night, John O'Connor of Ballylinch Stud presented you with your trophy, which is quite significant given he purchased Ingabelle off you. Of course, Ingabelle has gone on to be an important foundation mare at Ballylinch.

TL: We bred Ingabelle and sold a half share in her before she ever hit the racecourse but, when her racing career was over, her owners didn't have any interest in breeding from her so we sold her. If we didn't sell the half-share to begin with, we'd never have sold her ourselves, but we couldn't hang on to her. I saw Ballylinch put up a lovely picture congratulating me on the award on social media the other day and they mentioned Ingabelle and how she became an important foundation mare for them. We go back a good few years.

BL: She was a very significant filly. I used to ride her out every morning before school. She was a great barometer for me. For years afterwards, you'd ride something and you could say, 'yea, that's nice, but it's no Ingabelle.' I was very lucky that I was able to sit up on something so good at a young age. It's like sitting into a good car. The good horses are very hard to find and the problem is, for a place like this, once you stumble across one, you have to sell to keep the whole thing going. They are hard to hang on to. Dad would have had 10 people working here through the '70s to the '90s. That's lots of wages and lots of owners to look after. There were 40 or 50 horses riding out here every morning for over 30 years.

TL: We had some great times. It's a great lifestyle and you get a great kick out of when things go well.

BS: When did you retire?

BL: You haven't had your trainers' licence for over 10 years now, Dad.

TL: Staff was the biggest problem. It was impossible to get staff. If you don't have good riders, you're at nothing, because a bad rider would ruin a good horse. You need good lads riding out.

BL: We had some great people working here and, during the mid-'90s, Pat Smullen was our stable jockey. Every lad in his 60s or 70s around here, they either worked here or in the bog during the summer at one stage in their lives.

BS: Do you miss the training, Tom?

TL: You miss good horses. I remember I needed a companion for Ingabelle so I went and bought a horse for 1,200 pounds at the sales. He turned out to be Welsh Bard and he was as good as Ingabelle. He was a late foal, which is why we got him cheap, but he won a 2-year-old race in May at Down Royal. I can remember Declan Gillespie rode him to win at Down Royal and, when he got down off him, he said, 'how good is Ingabelle!' He'd been riding the two of them work so he knew exactly what we had.

BL: That was the Monday and Ingabelle was running at Tipperary on the Thursday. I can remember looking up at the boards when I was leading her around the parade ring and she was 14-1. By the time they got down to the start, she was the 5-2 favourite. She bolted up by five lengths. Days like that were brilliant.

BS: Could you sum up your emotion for being recognised by your peers at the ITBA Awards?

TL: Honest to God, no. None, that's the truth now. You work hard and enjoy the whole year and I looked forward to him running the very same as if I owned him myself. I looked forward so much to seeing him run. We went over to see him win at Newbury and got to speak to Richard Hannon before the race. He told us to come into the winner's enclosure three hours before the race, unbelievably cocky.He knew he had a good horse. It's very difficult to get a good mare, very difficult. Go to the sales and try and buy a good mare, the majority of them are no good and, the ones you want, you can't buy them.

BL: The dam sire is hugely important. We'd been on the lookout for a Lope De Vega mare for years before we bought Vida Amorosa.

BS: Has there been many inquiries about the mare?

BL: There have been enquiries but no real offers.

TL: A few people rang to see if we were interested in selling her but we're not. If you were to sell a mare like that, it would be very easy to flutter away the money and you'd have nothing to show for it, whereas you'd find it hard to find one as good again. Never say never, but we're not thinking of selling her.

BS: Have you got a mare to send Persian Force this year?

BL: There's a Red Clubs (Ire) mare out there called Style (Ire). Her son, Pagan (Ire) (Sir Prancealot {Ire}), won twice for William Haggas and is doing well out in Saudi Arabia now. She could go to Persian Force.

BS: You touched on Pat Smullen, Rhode's most famous son, earlier. You gave him his first winner and I'm sure you've many fond memories of him.

TL: He used to come up here every Saturday and Sunday and go racing pony racing on the Sundays as well. He'd get a fiver a ride and ended up being a champion pony race rider. When he was old enough, I brought him up to the Turf Club to get his licence. I remember that they were slow about giving him his licence because pony racing was against the rules but, anyway, after his first or second race riding for me, I knew he was good. He rode like a good jockey from an early stage. After he rode in two or three races for us, he rode everything for us, because we felt even back then that he was as good if not better than the rest of the other jockeys. And he was. He never rode a bad race for us. You could never blame the jockey when Pat rode for you.

BL: He was here about two years before he had his first winner on the track which was May 1993. I remember going up to Dundalk with Pat where he rode one for us to finish fourth. He was beaten three short heads, it was a blanket finish, but Mick Kinane wouldn't have rode our horse any better. You often see the ride of the month going to a winning ride but this ride, to finish fourth, was as good a ride as there was. I remember coming down off the stand and thinking that Pat Smullen was brilliant. He was claiming seven pounds but he was a stone ahead of any other apprentice out there.

TL: He was heavy as a claimer and he used to live in the sauna here. I remember thinking he would be a good bet to be champion jockey. I would have got great odds.

BL: There was no Curragh messing with Pat. His parents kept his feet on the ground and he was champion apprentice here twice. He went from here to John Oxx's and then, after a year there, went riding for Dermot Weld.

TL: I used to tell him to communicate what he thought after a race and he was brilliant at it. Tell the trainer, truly, this fella wants further or whatever. That's what you're being paid for. Don't just jump down. Tell them exactly what you think.

BL: That's what Pat was renowned for. He was able to explain and he understood how to talk to trainers and owners. That's why they loved him.

BS: Rhode has punched above its sporting weight for years with Pat flying the flag for the village and then last year La Petite Coco (Ire), Minzaal (Ire) and Persian Force, all of whom were bred in the area, recording major successes on the track. You must be proud of the village.

TL: There's three group winners from a five-mile radius. There's four stud farms in the area, with Frances Smullen there as well, and it's only a matter of time before she produces a real good one.

BS: There's plenty more to look forward to with Vida Amorosa. Has there been any reports on her Inns Of Court (Ire) 2-year-old?

BL: He was bought by Amo Racing. He was a lovely horse. Physically, he was probably the nicest foal out of the mare but he won't be as precocious as the other lads.

TL: He won't be early, he'll take a bit of time.

BL: He looks as though he'll be at his best at three. Even at the Orby, he looked a little leggy.

BS: It's obvious that you both have a great relationship with the O'Callaghans.

BL: They're brilliant. A little horse we bred, Roundabout Magic (Ire) won a little race at Lingfield on New Year's Eve a couple of years ago. He is only a pony and Hollie Doyle looked big on him. Anyway, he hadn't crossed the line five minutes and Tony rings, asking if he had a half-brother. 'He does,' says I, 'but he's by Morpheus.' 'Sure I'll come down and have a look at him,' Tony says. On he comes, to look at this Morpheus yearling. We had gelded him because Morpheus was a complete disaster and we were half thinking of sending this lad to the store sales. But Tony came looking at this lad with a view towards breezing him after his half-brother won a little Class 6 at Lingfield. They didn't buy him because we gelded him, but that's how game he is, he'd come here on New Year's Eve to look at buying a little Morpheus of ours to breeze. They're brilliant people to work with.

The post Tom Lacy: ‘I Looked Forward To Persian Force Running As If I Owned Him Myself’ appeared first on TDN | Thoroughbred Daily News | Horse Racing News, Results and Video | Thoroughbred Breeding and Auctions.

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‘The First Thing We Do Every Year Is Make Sure We Don’t Go Out Of Business’

Widely considered as one of the shrewdest trainers in Britain, Stuart Williams discusses the major issues facing middle-to-lower-tier operators as well as his concerns for the wider industry as a whole in this week's Starfield Stud-sponsored Q&A.

Brian Sheerin: The first thing that pops up when you log on to your website is a quote from Timeform, which describes you as, 'A conjurer of a trainer. One who can transform an apparently moderate animal into a frequent winner.' Another compliment that could be paid to you is that few trainers would contemplate trying to improve one that you trained.

Stuart Williams: To be honest, there are not many who have done better when they have left. There are plenty who have won races but they don't usually improve so it's something I'm proud of. We try to get the best out of every horse we have.

BS: What is the secret to rejuvenating and doing so well with the already-tried horses who make up the lion's share of your stable?

SW: We try to train each horse individually. It's easier to do that when you have a smaller yard like ours which is never home to more than 50 horses at any given time. It's easier for us to train them individually and we try to work out what suits each horse individually and make it work best in our routine. It's one of those things where I have gone down this route because I had to in order to survive. We started training with one horse. We've never had a big influx of yearlings so we've been forced to stock our stable with the older horses and the used horses at the sales. We've tried to do the best we can with each horse. It's all about trying to work out what makes each horse tick and trying to make them as happy as possible. If you can get them fit and healthy, they will produce it on the racetrack.

BS: So was it a case of needs must or was it a conscious decision to try and target the middle-tier horses at the sales in the hope of improving them?

SW: A bit of both, really. It has changed a lot in that the foreign market has become so strong and now the used horses are very hard to buy at the sales. In reality, 80% of the horses-in-training are rated below 80, so that's the standard of the breed and it has been that way for about 40 years. If we are looking at 80% of the horse population being rated less than 80 and everyone, including myself, wanting to operate in the top 20%, that's hard to do when you can only afford to buy a few yearlings every year. You are not going to beat the odds very often and get many of those yearlings rated above 80 if you are only buying a handful of them. If you want to be able to run at the big meetings and to compete for decent prize-money, you can go to the horses-in-training sales. Ten years ago, we could go and buy a 4-year-old and upwards rated 80 for 20 or 30 grand. If we could just improve it a little bit, we had a horse rated 90 who had a chance of winning a decent pot on a Saturday afternoon.

BS: What impact has the strength of the sales had on your business? It's obviously been a good avenue to trade horses for some people but the flip side of that is recruiting fresh talent has become arduous.

SW: The market has changed. We have a different funding system in Britain where they are basically relying on eight or more runners in all of these races and it's turning into quite a big problem because the fixture list has grown exponentially since the introduction of these all-weather tracks, and the horses who filled that programme are now being sold. It is not just the top horses, either, as it is the second- and even third-tier horses who are being sold abroad. If you looked at the horses-in-training sales from last year, you'd be amazed by how many horses were sold to continue their careers abroad.

BS: What is life at the coalface as a trainer in Britain like right now?

SW: To be honest, I think it's very difficult. It has never been a lucrative business, apart from if you are operating at the very top, and it's the same for the jockeys. The top 15 to 20 jockeys are making a good living whereas the rest of them are just about breaking even. It's the same for the trainers. It amazes me how many trainers manage to survive. It's a great lifestyle but it's very hard work and you put everything into it. I love it and I don't know how to do anything else. But it's becoming even more difficult to survive now than it was 15 or 20 years ago.

BS: In the face of that, I see you said you are expanding and are looking for more staff on Twitter.

SW: Everyone is short of staff. Any yard in Newmarket, there's a vacancy. John Gosden, Godolphin, everyone. We've changed our working practices to try and improve the work-life balance. None of my staff do a complete full week any week. We try to balance that against the fact that we need to look after these horses 24/7.

BS: Is that your biggest headache as a trainer, the recruiting and retaining of staff?

SW: Staff is a huge problem for everyone. I've been in Newmarket for a long time. When they had the stable lads strike, the wages doubled overnight, which resulted in a huge influx of Irish people coming over to work in England. Very few Irish people work in England now. There's more money, less racing and less hours by working in Ireland. The jockeys come over, and Ross Coakley and Oisin Orr are a good example of very good jockeys who haven't quite made it at the top tier of Irish racing doing very well over here, but very few staff come to work in England. In the 1980s, we'd a huge influx of females getting into the sport and, while they still come, it's not in the same numbers. In 2004 we'd a huge influx of Asian workers but now they can't come anymore. We have an indigenous population who are encouraged to stay on at school until at least 19 or 20 years of age and not many have ever ridden ponies as kids. Most of them are too big to ride Flat horses as well. There's a perfect storm developing where there aren't the people there to do the job.

BS: Obviously there's going to be turnover in the training ranks, as there is with any profession, but I know you were sad to see Chris Wall call time on his career.

SW: We're going down the route of the super trainer where everyone wants to have their horse with William Haggas, John Gosden, Roger Varian or the new kid on the block. Really good trainers like Chris, who is a smashing fella, saw his numbers dwindle down through the years. It's hard to see the logic behind any owner, who may have two or three horses, sending them to a big stable. You are going to be such a small fish in a big pond. When my owners want to ring up and find out about one of their horses, they ring me, they don't ring one of the assistants, the head lad or an agent. I think that should count for something. You have people like Rae Guest, George Margarson, Chris Wall, who wouldn't have had big strings, but proved that they are perfectly capable of training group horses once they have the right ammunition.

BS: How do you go about leveling the playing field?

SW: They brought in the one meeting a day rule for jockeys. Some of them like it and others don't but, for safety reasons, I think that was a good idea. A lot of the time, we have Lingfield on a Friday afternoon and Wolverhampton later that evening. It was a mad rush to get up the M6 on a Friday afternoon but everyone was doing it. If you could bring in something to help trainers in a similar way, I don't think that would be a bad thing. I'm not sure how feasible this would be but perhaps limiting trainers to a certain number would be a start. Two years ago, for example, the Gosdens had 253 horses in the horses-in-training book and that excluded 2-year-olds. They've 191 boxes at Clarehavan so you know that all of those horses are not stabled there. A lot of the horses are based at pre-training facilities and come in when they are ready. If you were the BHA, you could possibly say that, 'we are licensing you to train from this many boxes,' plus a few in and out of training. If you wanted to train 500 horses, which some do, you'd need close to 500 boxes. That would make it slightly more difficult.

BS: The role of the satellite trainer has never been as important to the super powers.

SW: And they require staff as well. The pre-training yards have got the staff and they don't have the overheads or the restrictions or the BHA inspecting their yards. It's a lot cheaper for them to run their business. I was talking to Malcolm Bastard about this recently, as one of my owners has a couple of horses down there with him, and he would make far more in a year pre-training than I would make as a trainer.

BS: A lot of guys' backs are against the wall and would say that, outside the top bracket, it's impossible to make a living as a trainer if you are not a trader. So what is it that entices so many people to soldier on?

SW: Listen, I enjoy it. I enjoy being with the horses and talking with the owner and going racing. I left school when I was 14 and have never known anything else. I've always wanted to be in racing and, I've been doing it so long, I probably wouldn't be able to do anything else! It's difficult and the first thing we do every year is try and make sure we don't go out of business.

BS: What measures do you take to ensure that doesn't happen?

SW: We don't go on fantastically-expensive holidays and we don't have a lavish lifestyle. We make sure we break even on the training fees and try to vet all of the owners who come to us in order to make sure we are not left with any bad debts. We've been very lucky in that regard and most of the people pay on time. We put a lot of work into that on a daily basis and the last thing you want is someone not paying at the end of the month. We also try to be as cute as we can with the placement of horses in order to win as much prize-money as we can for the owners and ourselves.

BS: We could be here all night talking about prize-money. It's obviously quite bad in Britain, as it is in Ireland, compared to all of the other major racing jurisdictions. You associate your stable as being well able to land a gamble. Has that propped up the business in light of the terrible prize-money?

SW: When we first started training, it did. It's not part of the business anymore because it's almost impossible to get any kind of money on these days. When I first started training, we built landing touches on horses into the business plan if we could hopefully identify a few horses who we felt could win and then we'd back them accordingly on the right days. But now we just try and place the horses where they have their best possible chance to win. It annoys me a little bit that people brand me as a gambling trainer. If you land a gamble, you get praised on one side for knowing the time of day but it's a black mark on the other side because some owners won't want to go to you because they'll think all you want to do is try and land gambles all of the time. That's not the case at all. We do the best we can with each individual horse.

BS: As you said in the Racing Post the other day, it has become a lot harder to get big money on. You also spoke about the impact the affordability checks are having on the industry.

SW: I think we need a radical change. Our two main income streams are from the owners and the punters. At the moment in Britain, our owners are recovering between six and eight pence in the pound on average. The money spent by punters comes back through the levy and the media rights and comes back into racing through different avenues. In the gross profits era that we're in at the moment, we need punters to lose. So, your owners are losing 92 to 94 pence in the pound and your second biggest customer is the punter and you want him to lose as well. That's a crazy way to run a business. It's just bonkers.

We need to somehow get nearer to the Australian model. It's more accessible now than it's ever been because the big bookmakers are mostly owned by American companies that are casino-based. They are the same people who own the big bookmakers in Australia. If we could convince the government that we are fighting this overseas drain with both hands tied behind our back right now, because of the funding system, we could hopefully get them to legislate in favour of an Australian-based system. I think it would be hugely beneficial to us and might also bring the on-course market back to life because there'd be bigger bets struck on the track.

That's one thing that is unique about British and Irish racing, is the bookmakers on the racecourse shouting the odds. It's part of the experience and is an exciting place to be. You go racing in France, the prize-money is better but there's four men and a dog sitting there watching the smaller meetings with no atmosphere at all. If we get the product, the prize-money and the competition right, then get people betting on it, then it all snowballs into a higher level altogether.

BS: You've spent time all over the world. Did you ever flirt with the idea of basing yourself somewhere other than Britain?

SW: I always think to myself that I should have stayed in Australia! I might retire out there one day. I was with Bart Cummings out there and I can remember going to Brisbane for the Carnival and basing one of our horses there with a small trainer who had a row of eight boxes behind his house in a suburb of Brisbane about a mile from the track. We used to walk the horses to the track every day and just work them like that. Well, that wouldn't be a bad retirement, having three or four horses in the back garden. He used to take them to the track and pay a work rider to ride them for him. That would appeal to me when I get too old to do it here! One day.

BS: Hopefully that won't come anytime soon as you've proved yourself to be one of the shrewdest operators in Britain down through the years. But if I was to ask you what provided you with your biggest kick in the game, what would you say?

SW: We had a horse when we first started training, Concer Un (GB) (Lord Bud {GB}), who was owned by a farmer who couldn't get 500 pounds for him at the sales. He was out of a mare who won once from as many starts, in a bumper, and William Haggas had trained it. Concer Un won a hatful of races for us, including a big handicap at the Ebor meeting at York, where he broke the track record and beat a horse who went on to finish second at the Breeders' Cup. To do that with a horse who couldn't get sold in the ring for 500 pounds provided us with a great buzz. We won 10 handicaps in the same season with Sendintank (GB) (Halling) and he won four handicaps in the same week in two separate weeks. That was pretty good as well.

BS: Finally, what does 2023 look like for you?

SW: We've got some nice horses and have picked up some new owners. George Gil is one of them, and he runs Opulence Thoroughbreds. He asked if I'd buy him some yearlings a couple of years ago and some of those look quite promising. We bought 14 in total in 2021. I trained seven of those and Roger Varian trained the rest. They didn't buy as many last year and they went to a few different trainers but the syndicate is growing and is modeled on Middleham Park. They've been fairly successful and, luckily, a few of the horses look quite promising so it's all quite positive.

The post ‘The First Thing We Do Every Year Is Make Sure We Don’t Go Out Of Business’ appeared first on TDN | Thoroughbred Daily News | Horse Racing News, Results and Video | Thoroughbred Breeding and Auctions.

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Angus Gold: ‘You Could Never Underestimate The Significance Of Baaeed’

In this week's Starfield Stud-sponsored Q&A, Brian Sheerin speaks to the long-standing Shadwell racing manager Angus Gold, who explains why Baaeed (GB) (Sea The Stars {Ire}), recently crowned the highest-rated turf horse in the world, came along at a hugely important time for the operation and much more.

Brian Sheerin: To what degree do you think Baaeed (GB) helped to secure the future of Shadwell given he reached his pomp during a difficult time for the operation?

Angus Gold: I don't think it could be overstated how important Baaeed coming along–and the timing of it–was. It was extraordinary, really, as Sheikh Hamdan spent a lifetime in this business and had been trying to breed these top horses. He sadly died in March but then Baaeed came along in June and turned out to be a real champion. I was quoted on this before and I appreciate it might sound weird to some people but it was almost as if Baaeed had been sent to help his family to take on the mantle and show them what could happen when you get lucky and get a top horse in this sport. The timing of it was extraordinary and very relevant.

Obviously Sheikha Hissa is fascinated and very interested in the business but I'm not sure the rest of her family were as interested as she was from the outset. Racing and breeding was very much Sheikh Hamdan's thing but she was very keen to learn and get involved whereas I'm not so sure the rest of her brothers and sisters shared that enthusiasm. For them to be able to share a horse as good as Baaeed, when they are now all doing it together, I think it was extraordinarily important. To have a proper horse like Baaeed come along, it gave everyone a lift. Everyone was struggling when Sheikh Hamdan died as he was a remarkable man. To go back to it, the timing of Baaeed was hugely significant and you could never underestimate the significance of Baaeed to everyone, and particularly Sheikh Hamdan's family.

BS: You could say that the Aga Khan was placed with a similar dilemma when his father died so it's fantastic that Sheikha Hissa has continued the legacy.

AG: It would have been terribly sad if they decided not to continue the legacy. But, let's be realistic, it costs a lot of money to run an operation the size of Shadwell so it was understandable that they didn't want to continue with the numbers that they had before. As well as everything else, it is important that we generate a bit of income to help finance the whole show. With Minzaal (Ire) at Derrinstown, Baaeed at Nunnery, to go with Tasleet (GB), who has had an encouraging start, Eqtidaar (Ire), who we need to try and get more mares to and Mohaather (GB), who has had some nice foals, we can start to get a bit of income in which should offset some of the costs involved in running the operation. That will help them going forward.

BS: I saw William Haggas speaking the other day where he mentioned that he felt he ran Baaeed in the wrong race on Champions Day. What way do you look back on Baaeed's career? Is it tinged with regret, like William, or is it more closely related to thanking your lucky stars for coming across what was officially the best turf horse in the world last year.

AG: How could you be disappointed? Maybe William is looking for perfection. I wouldn't say we ran him in the wrong race at all. To me, it was the ground that was against him in the Champion S. Pure and simple. Other people might have different theories but it was very obvious early in the straight at Ascot that it wasn't going to happen. He was struggling and couldn't pick up on that ground.

It's very rare in my experience to find a horse who is as effective on heavy ground as he is on top of the ground. Obviously, Frankel (GB) won on very bad ground, which shows how remarkable he was. But, for me, I would never say it was the wrong race to have run him in. I would have loved to have run him in the Arc because it's the greatest race in the world. But that would have been completely the wrong race to run him in as it turned out with the way the ground came up. I think we ran him in the right race but the conditions went against us.

I always wanted to step this horse up in trip because that is what his pedigree suggested but we didn't get to do it because he kept winning top-class races over a mile. It was his class and his speed that made us keep him over a mile for as long as we did. It wasn't until York until we got the chance to step him up in trip and everyone saw how brilliant he was that day. I was disappointed for the horse. I would have loved had he gone to stud unbeaten. But how could anyone be disappointed with a horse who had done so much for us, the operation and the general public? He won 10 out of 10 before [his] first and only defeat. Not many do that.

BS: John Oxx took part in this Q&A at the beginning of the season where he explained how happy he was for Sea The Stars (Ire) to have a top-class miler. I know you are quoted as saying you were surprised by the speed Baaeed possessed given his pedigree. With all of that in mind, what do you think the overriding influence Baaeed will have at stud and what type of mares have been booked in to see him this year?

AG: His pedigree is more middle-distance but, as John said, Sea The Stars had the class to win the 2000 Guineas. Slow horses can't do that. He was an extraordinarily classy horse who was able to carry his speed over a-mile-and-a-half. I was purely surprised by how much speed Baaeed had for his pedigree but, then again, he looked a sharper horse. Physically, he's a strong, powerful horse who looked like he might be more of a shorter runner but then his full-brother [Hukum (Ire)] stays a-mile-and-a-half well. I'm not clever enough to tell you but I would imagine he will breed plenty of middle-distance horses but, equally, if he breeds them like himself, obviously he's going to put a bit of speed into them. I would imagine he will get a selection but I have learned over the years that you should never ignore pedigree and he's by a horse who had the class and speed to win a Guineas but also won a Derby and an Arc and is from a staying female line. I would expect him to get a lot of high-class middle-distance horses, like Frankel and Sea The Stars. If he is half as good as they are, I think we'll be doing alright.

BS: You touched on Minzaal. I was at Derrinstown for the Irish Thoroughbred Stallion Trail where nominations manager Joe Behan spoke of the massive buzz that he has created there and how he has proved something of a tonic for the place after the passing of Sheikh Hamdan.

AG: Firstly, we all miss Sheikh Hamdan, and I spoke to him most days in my life. We also missed his guidance and nobody knew what was going to happen after he died. Also, we had to sell a lot of horses in a short space of time when he died. Again, that is not a secret. For Derrinstown, Tamayuz (GB) had just retired so they needed fresh blood and it was lovely to get a horse like Minzaal, a very good sprinter, who will hopefully attract a lot of mares and breathe new life into the place.

BS: Was that the thinking behind sending Minzaal to Derrinstown? Was it that there was a void that needed to be filled or did you think that he was a stallion who would do particularly well in Ireland over anywhere else?

AG: I used to say to Sheikh Hamdan that our responsibility is to feed the studs. Whether that's England, Ireland or America, although that is a bit more polarised now, it's imperative that we try and blood new stallions but everyone in the business will tell you hard it is to do that. I've done this job for 36 years now and I've seen how few good horses manage to get retired to stud. It's vital when you have an operation the size of Derrinstown, you need to be getting stallions in there. It was really important and, as Joe said, it should give them all a lift and hopefully we can get a lot of decent mares into him.

BS: Speaking about the stallion roster, you must have been thrilled by how Mohaather's first foals were received last year?

AG: I don't like to beef horses up because I am old-fashioned and I prefer to let them do the talking but, in my experience, Mohaather was out of the ordinary as a racehorse. What he did that day in winning the Sussex, I haven't seen a turn of foot like that since Kingman (GB) won the Sussex himself. I think he was a well above average horse. I mean no disrespect, but I think if he was trained by a John Gosden or an Aidan O'Brien, I think more people would have realised how good he was. Just because Marcus Tregoning has a smaller string, I don't think people appreciated what a good horse he was.

He's an important horse for us but you've got to see that transferred and people liking the offspring, and right throughout the year, even before the sales, I kept getting good feedback on the foals he was producing. That was a lovely thing to hear but obviously you want to get to the sales and see them for yourself. I think we saw athletic, strong-bodied foals with a good walk and attitude by him. Physically, they looked the right type, and to see some of the people who bought them was important. It has been a very encouraging start for him.

BS: At what point were you given the green light to go and buy yearlings again last year?

AG: There wasn't a point. Sheikha Hissa said to me that she was hoping to come to the sales and, when she did come over, she expressed how she wanted to mainly concentrate on fillies because the stud is the most important thing and we needed to get some fresh blood in. We only bought one colt, who funnily enough is by Showcasing (GB) and is closely-related to Mohaather, but the rest were all fillies. We bought two well-bred fillies for a lot of money in Book 1 and then Sheikha Hissa came back and we bought some more in Book 2. It's going to be a long and slow process building everything back up. We were so lucky last year the way everything came together but obviously we are going to miss the superstar Baaeed this year. We know we are going to be quiet for a while but it was lovely to see Sheikha Hissa's commitment to building the studs back up and hopefully we'll get the odd stallion along the way.

BS: You bought a good mixture of yearlings. There were Showcasings and Siyounis (Fr) but you also bought some of the progeny by the unproven stallions as well. Was there a particular type of horse you targeted?

AG: There's never a set policy. Some people say that they don't want to touch horses by unproven sires but Too Darn Hot (GB) is a beautifully-bred horse and was obviously a high-class racehorse. Look, we don't know if they can run but you've got to go with your gut instinct and there's every reason why he'll make a good stallion. We also bought a couple of fillies by Land Force (Ire) who is a beautifully-bred horse who showed plenty of speed. He probably didn't retire to stud with the race record that they would have hoped for initially but he's a very good-looking horse and I loved the stock by him. I see no reason why he won't get runners.

You have to take a chance on some of these things and hope they come off. It's very interesting, I've been in Australia for the past few weeks and I've been keeping an eye on how the Too Darn Hots and Blue Point (Ire)s have been selling. They have sold really well. In a perfect world, you would go with proven stallions, but I have found that over the years we have done well with going for unproven horses. As long as they come within budget and are within reason, you've got to give it a go.

BS: You've been Shadwell's racing manager for 36 years. Who would you say have been your biggest influences?

AG: I can never think of a clever answer. I got very lucky in that I started off working in the racing business and then I went to London to work in the city in insurance for four years. I decided that it wasn't for me and I wanted to get back into horses. Michael Osborne, who ran the stud at Sandringham, was good enough to take me on and give me a chance. I spent two seasons there, so he was hugely important in my life and pushed me in the right direction.

You need to get lucky along the way and so many people helped me, including Hubie de Burgh, who interviewed me for the job with Sheikh Hamdan. I was 27 years old when I was interviewed for the job and had absolutely no experience at all. I have just kept my head down and they have let me learn from my mistakes. You just hope to learn from the many top-class people along the way. I've just been very lucky to have worked for such a patient man who was so passionate about the business.

BS: It takes a bit more than luck to hold down that position for such a long time. For such a big job, you've clearly had a lot of fun and still do have a lot of fun doing the job.

AG: Sheikh Hamdan was my boss and I did what I was told within reason. If I felt we were doing something wrong, I would tell him. We had a good working relationship and he was passionate. That was probably the best thing of all; the passion he had for racing and breeding. There aren't many people in his position who are willing to put in the time that he did. He used to watch the videos of the mares and foals that he would be sent from America and Ireland and he watched every single race and then go back and watch the replay when he was finished work.

He was the minister for finance, so he was working hard during the day, but he managed to fit in time to keep on top of the whole operation. He was incredibly hands on and every mating went through him. You learn that, the great thing about this game is, once you start to think you know something, something will come along and prove you wrong. You learn never to get too big-headed and to take what comes. You could buy the most beautifully-bred horse for an awful lot of money and it could get a respiratory infection and never be the same again. That's why, when you get a horse like Baaeed, he needs to be celebrated.

I enjoy working with people and was just very lucky to work for a man like Sheikh Hamdan for so many years. Every time I think I'm having a bad day, I think back to the time I was sitting on a tube train going to work in London with a lot of people who hated doing what they were doing for a living, I realise that I am lucky enough to wake up in the morning and go looking at horses on the gallops or do whatever it is that I am doing on a given day. It's been a big lesson in life for me to try and enjoy what you do in life. If you're lucky enough to have something that interests you in this game, you are well ahead of the rest of the field already. We're not curing cancer or doing anything particularly clever. In this case, all we are trying to do is buy and breed horses who run faster than others. I'm still fascinated by it and still love it. I'm very lucky to do something that I do love.

BS: When you speak of this game having an unrelenting ability to tame lions, there was a story you shared about Makfi on the TDN Aus Podcast that illustrated best how this game can humble you and how loyal Sheikh Hamdan was as well.

AG: His phrase was, 'we had no luck with this horse.' It was an emotional time for me. I felt very small and felt awful for the people at Derrinstown who bred the horse. I was told to get rid of a lot of 2-year-olds who weren't looking as though they were going to measure up and, at that stage, it didn't look like Makfi was. He came out and made fools of us by winning the 2000 Guineas the following year. It was a huge learning curve but to have Sheikh Hamdan in my corner, and for him to behave in the way that he did, he was unbelievably classy and said, 'we had no luck with this horse now forget about it.'It was the most humbling thing that happened in my professional life. I felt so bad for so many people. I offered to resign at the end of the year and he got very angry. He told me to forget about it and that was the class of the man that he was.

BS: Last year proved that life after Sheikh Hamdan is not all doom and gloom for the Shadwell operation. What can we expect to see from Shadwell this year in the sales ring?

AG: It will be built up slowly. We've trimmed it down, as the family wanted, and they are learning. I don't expect to be back buying to the level that we were. Sheikh Hamdan was extraordinary. He supported this business immensely. Even I was taken aback by the amount of horses he would buy and the support he showed people. People like him are one in a million. All I want to do is help Sheikha Hissa and her family for as long as they want me and to build things back up again. I don't mean numbers, I mean quality. I want to get it on a sound footing for them to take forward and enjoy long after I am gone.

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‘We Just About Break Even: Prize-Money Is Ludicrous In Britain’

Mick Appleby will bid to begin the new year with a bang when stable star Raasel lines out in the Dubai Dash at Meydan. Appleby will run four horses in total at Meydan over the coming weeks and months, all of whom cost just over £60,000 combined, which illustrates the Northern England-based trainer's ability to sniff out a bargain at the sales.

In this week's Starfield Stud-sponsored Conversations Q&A, Appleby discusses his approach to sourcing talent, speaks out on the poor prize-money in Britain and how difficult it is to stay afloat as a trainer as well as expressing a desire to train quality 2-year-olds in the future.

Brian Sheerin: It's an exciting time for the yard with four runners in Dubai to look forward to in the upcoming weeks.

Mick Appleby: It is and we've got Raasel (GB) (Showcasing {GB}) running in the Dubai Dash on Friday. The favourite, Man Of Promise (Into Mischief), is a very good horse and he should be hard to beat. But hopefully Raasel can make us all proud and run a good race. If we finish in the first four we'd be delighted.

BS: There could be a lot of prize-money to be won with Raasel in Dubai over the coming weeks and months.

MA: There are only two five-furlong races on grass and he'll go for those. We might try him over six furlongs as well because, if he's going to get that trip anywhere, Meydan is where he will get it as it's such an easy track and he'd get quick ground there as well. If he was to run well over six furlongs, there is the possibility of him staying out there for World Cup Night. We'll try him over that trip first and see how it goes.

BS: Have you anything in mind for him on home turf this season or does his programme almost map itself out? In hindsight, it was an excellent run to be beaten a little over four lengths in the G1 Prix de l'Abbaye.

MA: It could be a big year for him. He ran very well at Longchamp and the draw did him on the day. He was just drawn on the wrong side and never really had any chance from there so I thought he ran really well that day. If he'd have been drawn on the other side, I think he'd have gone very close. He'll be campaigned very similar to last season and will be targeted at pretty much the same races.

BS: It's remarkable that all four horses you are running in Dubai cost less than 20,000gns apiece. What can you tell us about them?

MA: Edraak (Ire) (Elzaam {Aus}) will hopefully run on Jan. 20 in the 0-105 handicap. I am just waiting to hear back from the handicapper to let me know if he is dropping him in the weights or not. He's been off for six months because he did a suspensory in front when he was due to run at Newcastle. He should have been reassessed after being off for six months and, if he does get dropped, I think he'd have a very good chance. United Front (War Front) and Ayr Harbour (GB) (Harbour Watch {Ire}) will be campaigned on the dirt. They are good all-weather horses and Ayr Harbour in particular has shown some very good form on the old fibersand at Southwell so he could do quite well on the dirt out there. Same with United Front, he's been a good all-weather horse for us and I think he'll be fine on the dirt out there.

BS: What do you look for in a dirt horse?

MA: The American-bred horses seem to do a lot better on dirt and United Front obviously has an American pedigree. Basically, you need a big strong horse. I found that out when I went to South Korea with Annaf (Ire) (Muhaarar {GB}) last year. The dirt was just far too deep for him. I am going to try and go back out there this year and would try to buy horses specifically to go out there. I'd be looking at American-bred horses to go out there. The prize-money is absolutely amazing in South Korea.

BS: And what is it that you look for in horses at the sales in general as few trainers–if any–have a better reputation for rejuvenating tried horses.

MA: The Dixon brothers, Matt Taylor and Richard O'Brien are very good on form. They will pick horses out at the sales strictly on form. They will see things that I can't see. Likewise, I will see things that they can't see when it comes to physical issues with a horse and that's why the whole thing works so well.

BS: And what would you not forgive physically when buying at the horses-in-training sales?

MA: Knees are the big thing with me. It's very hard to get a horse right if they have bad knees. It's very hard to get them back if their knees are gone.

BS: Too many horses have improved for joining your yard for it to be put down to a simple change of scenery. What routine do they go into and how do you go about finding the improvement?

MA: It sounds simple but you have to find what the problems are and try and manage them. The other thing is, don't train them too hard. Actually, I think that is the key, not training them too hard. Just keep them sweet. You also have to give each horse the individual attention that it needs. Okay, it's got harder to do that with the more horses that we have got but the most I'd ever train at one time is 80. That's the number where you can manage it all and keep an eye on everything that's going on with each horse.

BS: You must have a great team to be even able to apply such individual care to 80 horses. That must be a huge advantage as a lot of yards are struggling to find staff right now.

MA: A lot of the staff that we have here have been with us for a long time. But it is a big problem, getting staff, and we could possibly do with a couple more riders. Getting groundstaff is not as hard. Anyone can muck a stable out. But riding a horse is a completely different skill and we find it hard to get the good riders. When you have the likes of Godolphin offering mega money to work riders, you just can't compete with that.

BS: And how have you found competing in the sales ring throughout the past year? Even for those middle to lower tier handicappers, the prices have sky-rocketed.

MA: It's been a lot tougher buying those bottom-end horses the past few years. We are not prepared to pay over the odds. We might go a little bit more than what we think a horse is worth if we really want it but we are not prepared to pay three or four times the true value. Why would you? Some of these horses are not worth what people are prepared to pay for them. The days are gone when I could go out and buy Art Scholar (Ire) (Pyrus) and Lockantanks (GB) (Compton Place {GB}) for five hundred quid apiece. You can't do that now. We're a little bit down on numbers as a result but that's probably not a bad thing because of the staff situation. We've 80 horses in and we're happy with that.

BS: The quality of the yard seems to be growing every year. You sent out 107 winners last year and recorded a record haul of £1,438,497 in prize-money in Britain.

MA: We'd 109 winners the year before but only won about £1.2million in prize-money so the quality is growing. But prize-money is a big issue in British racing. Owners are leaving the sport because it's just not viable. It's meant to be a hobby for owners but it's becoming a very expensive one. There's no way that you should be winning a race and it's not covering your costs for the month. If you win a Class 5 or 6 race in Britain, you will be very lucky to cover your costs for the month. It shouldn't be that way.

BS: Take Win Win Power (Ire) (Exceed And Excel {Aus} as an example the other day. He won first time up for you at Southwell but won just £3,402.

MA: I bought him for £2,000 at the Ascot Sale in November, so he has paid for himself, but that's ridiculous prize-money. There's no way you should be running for less than £10,000 in this day and age. There's so many owners leaving racing now because it doesn't make economic sense.

BS: Is there anything you can do as a trainer to incentivise owners having a horse in training with you?

MA: Not really. We run it to a tight budget as it is. We are only £55 per day and are a lot cheaper than the majority of other trainers in the country. We can't slice it any other way. We just about break even and we're not making money out of it. Put it this way, if I was looking at coming into training now, I wouldn't do it. It's a good lifestyle but, is it a viable business? No, it isn't. Unless you have a bottomless pit of money, it's not viable. Obviously I've been doing it long enough to have built everything up but, if I was coming into it now, there's no way I'd be able to get where I have. Somebody needs to stand up and do something about the prize-money situation, otherwise there will be a lot more people leaving racing in this country.

BS: How frustrating is it when you rattle off a series of wins with a horse, feel you've done a great job with it but still haven't cleared what it costs to train the animal for a year?

MA: There's horses we've won five or six races with and they might only have won 20 grand. It's ludicrous. Owners would rightly look at that and think, 'why bother?' Being in horses now, you've got to do it for the love of it.

BS: Could you see things changing even five or 10 years down the line?

MA: Unless the BHA, the ROA and the NTF get their heads together and do something to sort this mess out, well then it's never going to change. They just bury their heads in the sand and don't do anything about it. The worst thing that ever happened is the Tote being sold off. The bookmakers need to be putting more money back into the sport. Look at the profits Bet 365 made last year. How much of that went back into racing?

BS: On that note, I interviewed Charles Byrnes a few years ago after he recorded a slew of bumper gambles and he was pretty forthright in saying that the money he won was necessary to keep the business in lights. When the money comes for one trained by Mick Appleby it is always very well-respected. Do you bet yourself?

MA: Not really. I don't really gamble because I'm a bad loser. It's not very often I'd have a bet on one of my own horses. If I'm having a bet, it's more likely to be on football. We've owners who like betting. We get our horses fit and well. A lot of the time, they will win first time out. Everyone seems to have cottoned on to that now and you'd see horses of ours who may not even necessarily be that well fancied and they'd be going off as odds-on favourites in races. People think we're going to just improve every single horse and it's going to be winning first time out for us. There's been times when horses of ours have gone off odds-on and we'd be thinking, 'bloody hell, who'd back that.' Then when it does get beat, all you get is abuse from people online.

BS: I know you've had some major successes on the grass but do you feel slightly pigeonholed as an all-weather trainer or as a trainer who just does well with other people's castoffs? Is there part of you that would like to start taking on more yearlings with a view to training 2-year-olds?

MA: Obviously we have been pigeonholed. People think we can just train handicappers, basically. Nobody associates us for having nice yearlings or 2-year-olds but that's only because we've never been sent any. There's no other reason whatsoever. We've had 2-year-old winners–I think we'd half a dozen 2-year-old runners last year and one winner. You can't run them if you don't have them. Aquarius (Ire) (Charm Spirit {Ire}) won first time out at Newmarket a couple of seasons ago, beating a Godolphin hotpot, but then there are still some people who think we can't train 2-year-olds. I can only train what I have. I'd love an owner to come along and say, here's two million quid, go and buy some yearlings. Then we'd be able to show people we can train 2-year-olds.

BS: You do extremely well with what you train and I know that Martin Dixon plays an integral role in the operation as a race planner. How much of an advantage has that been?

MA: Martin started off doing my entries a couple of years ago as I'd got a lot more horses and I was going racing a lot more so I was finding it hard to do everything. It's working very well.

BS: And how will you approach having runners in Dubai over the coming weeks? Will you go over a few times?

MA: We have two lads out there and one of them has been there before so he knows the ropes. They send us What'sApp videos every day and they have all settled in great. I am going out next Wednesday to see Ayr Harbour and United Front running on the Friday. I'll stay out there for two or three days and will continue to come back and forward.

BS: Another thing that is close to your heart is the Racing And Pride campaign that promotes racing as being everybody's sport and the LGBTQ+ community. You put yourself out there for that campaign. Do you think it was a good thing or is there much more to be done?

MA: There's always more that can be done but it was definitely a step forward. I came out as gay 15 or 16 years ago. You're always going to get certain people who will look down their nose at you and think you're a bloody alien or something but that's up to them. I just get on with my life and live it as I want to live it.

BS: But obviously you're in the public domain so I imagine it helped quite a few people to see a prominent trainer come out as gay.

MA: Quite a few people came up to me at the races actually. A lot of people thanked me for speaking out so I think it probably helped a lot of people. If it helped one person, that's all that matters.

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