McKibbin sat down with Brian Sheerin during the December Mares Sale to discuss his career to date and hopes for the future for the latest TDN Q&A.

It's hard to believe that you've only been auctioneering for two years.

I started in August 2021 but it feels like I have been doing it for a good while now. Auctioneering at Book 2 this year was nerve-wracking but, since then, it just feels like it is second nature for me which is encouraging.

And you didn't set out to be an auctioneer, either. 

No, that's true. I started bid spotting for Tattersalls during my gap year to try and earn a little bit of extra money on the side. I was working as a pupil assistant with Simon Crisford at the time. I'd always looked at the auctioneers and thought, 'God, I could never do that.' A couple of years later, after I'd done the Irish National Stud course and worked in Australia, I came back and applied for the Tattersalls internship. Luckily, I got that, but it wasn't until I sat down with Ollie Fowlston that I thought about becoming an auctioneer. When you think of auctioneering, you think of the American and Australian way of doing things, where the numbers just roll off the tongue. Obviously at Tattersalls, we have a more traditional way of doing things, where you make out what the auctioneer is saying and the figures the auctioneer is asking for. I initially thought I'd be too boring-and just say numbers, numbers, numbers-but I practiced a lot and Ollie came up to the ring with me quite a bit at the start. He was my mentor and the guy who honed in on me and said, 'right, if you want to give auctioneering a go, this is what you need to do.' Edmond Mahony was also a huge help and he invested a lot of time in coming up to the ring whilst I was practising and giving me advice and things to work on. It took a good year of practicing pretty much three or four times a week before I was ready for the real thing.

What does that unseen practice consist of?

So, we'd do it in sections. The ring would be completely empty but for me and Ollie. We'd start with the figures, going from one thousand, to two thousand and three thousand, and just get into a patter from there. Next we'd add in the fillers, which would be, 'bid again,' for example and then we could concentrate on introducing the lot and eventually the selling of the lot. We'd do it all in different parts before piecing it all together in the empty ring. Once I got to a certain stage Edmond would then come up with me, he would put his hand up and I would take the bid from him. I wasn't allowed to go on to the next bid until he took his hand down. I was like, 'right, this is a live situation,' and I had to stay on that figure and work as though it was a real sale. Essentially, counting is the easy part, but it's when you haven't got any bid and you have to fill the time, that's when it becomes tricky. 

Even for me watching on as a journalist, I find it hard to track who's bidding so I can only imagine how difficult it is for you to maintain your rhythm as well as everything else.

It is difficult and, here at Tattersalls, we can't take a bid unless we have seen it. At other sales houses, they have bid spotters who can make noises to signify a bid has been taken, but we don't do that here. The bidder has to bid to the auctioneer at Tattersalls for it to be accepted. There's a lot going on but, it's really enjoyable and, the more you do something, the more confident you get. My confidence is growing but, again, there's still lots to be working on and I still try and come up to the ring when I can to practise. I do a lot of charity gigs as well to keep the momentum going in between sales. I did the Leger Legends auction at Doncaster which raises money for the Injured Jockeys Fund. They're actually great fun to do because it's a completely different kettle of fish. You need to be sharp as you are selling different items and you're not trying to be funny but, on the other hand, it shouldn't be boring. They're definitely good to do. 

Does it ever become daunting? For a lot of sellers, how their horse gets on in the ring can make or break their year and, if it doesn't go right, you could be an easy person to blame. 

Exactly. You're in control of the room and, no matter what the vendor has done or what the purchaser is planning on doing, you're the bridge, you're the broker. It is high pressure stuff and I try not to think about it like that. When I tend to think about a high valued lot or a lot where I know the vendor is expecting to get well paid, that can sometimes hold you back in a way, so I try to treat every lot the same, no matter the status. Obviously I do take it all into account but, in general, I try to treat them all the same in a bid to alleviate the pressure and it's something that works well for me. My hope is to always come off the rostrum after giving it everything I can and hopefully there's a happy vendor at the end of it all. 

In terms of satisfaction, I'd say selling I'm A Gambler for 850,000gns at the horses-in-training sale last year and taking bids from some of the biggest players in the game from the rostrum outside would rank pretty highly?

Selling I'm A Gambler was brilliant because he exceeded both mine and Charlie Johnston's expectations. It was a great experience and one I am sure I will not forget! During Book 1, I was out on the podium. You've got some big players outside and some of them can be discreet bidders so it's all about knowing when they're bidding and being careful not to miss a bid. Thinking about it, it's actually brilliant practice for what I will hopefully in time encounter up on the rostrum at Book 1 and in the Sceptre Sessions. That is the main aim; to sell at Book 1 and the Sceptre Sessions in time.

Along with I'm A Gambler, are there any other moments that stick out in the memory bank?

Well the I'm A Gambler one is funny because, when you watch the video back, it looks as though I've pulled my hamstring atop of the rostrum. When the Najd Stud team bid again, I dropped down as though I'd pulled my hamstring, as I wasn't expecting it. It got circulated on social media and, while it was funny, I'm not sure it was the most professional moment! That sticks out but there have been a few slips of the tongue at times as well.

Of course, auctioneering is not the only string to your bow here at Tattersalls. You've climbed the ladder pretty fast and have become a recognisable and friendly face of the company.

Working hard and gaining as much experience as possible is the priority. There are so many different facets to the business and I have a lot to learn. I do the stabling for the yearling sales and other sales bar December, where I do a lot of organising and help run the Sceptre Sessions, for example. That is great. We target the high-quality fillies and mares and try to give people an incentive to sell at the Sceptre Sessions. I have enjoyed that and it is very rewarding when you see the Sceptre Sessions producing such strong results for the vendors who support Tattersalls. There's lots to the role and I try to get over to other sales to represent the company. Yearling and breeze-up inspections are another big part of it. That's a process I'm looking forward to doing more of next year.

You touched on the fact you've spent time with Simon Crisford, did the Irish National Stud Course and have worked in Australia as well. You've crammed a lot in for a 25-year-old.

I just wanted to get as much experience in different areas of the industry as possible. I spent a year with Simon as a pupil assistant and learned all things hands on. There were a few great guys there, including Les Reynolds, the travelling head lad. He basically showed me the ropes and took me under his wing. I don't come from a hands-on background in horses–my Dad is in equine insurance and my grandfather is Tim Richards, who was a racing journalist–but the passion was always there. The hands-on experience is what I was keen to get and Simon was brilliant for giving me advice.  It made sense to me to kick on and bypass university, plus the Irish National Stud course was a great experience and I met some great mates there. After that, I went to work for Arrowfield Stud in Australia, so it was all packed into a short space of time.

You're obviously very ambitious. 

I like to think that I am the type of person that when I put my mind to something I put all my focus and energy into it and try to be the best I can be at whatever it is. I was not the best at school but always loved sport and rugby was my passion. I ended up being captain for the first team and thankfully I didn't disgrace myself in my final exams either. I have always been very driven and I definitely have a competitive side. It certainly shows when I play golf with my dad and brother!

With that in mind, where would you see yourself in five years' time? 

Hopefully selling at Book 1 and the Sceptre Sessions and being a senior inspector for Tattersalls. I don't know what will come after that but I will continue to work on honing my craft as an auctioneer and working within the company at Tattersalls.

Did you ever think of race commentating?

It's funny you say that because Richard Pugh, a Director of Tattersalls Ireland and a race commentator said the same to me and Matt Hall. He said that the two of us should think about giving it a go. Look, I wouldn't say no to it. I can remember being put on the spot to commentate on the Hennessy, or races like that in front of friends, and it's mind-blowingly difficult. It's not something I'd rule out!

In terms of theatre and drama, I'd imagine there are few better places to work than at Tattersalls.

It's an amazing place. Everybody goes back to Marsha or Alcohol Free selling here but even some of the smaller lots are fascinating. I'll never forget Alastair [Pim, fellow auctioneer] selling the Kingman half-sister to Chaldean for a million. The way he got to a million was seriously impressive. Sometimes that theatre is seriously engrossing.

Being an auctioneer yourself, you can probably appreciate the craft better than anyone on the big days.

Definitely. It is a skill being able to get up there and remember everything you need to know about each horse, their physicality, their pedigree, the instructions from the vendor and spotting bids all whilst keeping your patter and potentially having one of the rostrum spotters giving you instructions at the same time. And then you have the added pressure of the big days when you know you have a lot who is the highlight. At the end of the day Tattersalls works on behalf of the vendor and for most it is their livelihood, so you want to do the best you can for them and get the result they want. I remember coming up to Tattersalls when I was younger and being so impressed by the auctioneers. Not only were they good at their job, but they were also entertaining whilst keeping their nerve and staying calm under pressure on the big lots. It is something I have tried to take into account with my own style and I try to let my energy and enthusiasm show from the rostrum. I am lucky that I have learnt from some of the best auctioneers in the game!

The post Freddie McKibbin Q&A: ‘My Auctioneering Style Is Lots Of Energy’ appeared first on TDN | Thoroughbred Daily News | Horse Racing News, Results and Video | Thoroughbred Breeding and Auctions.

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   Cleary has already recorded big-race success for his long-standing boss, when guiding Mac Swiney (Ire) (New Approach {Ire}) to G1 Irish 2000 Guineas glory in 2021, and has opened up about what it means to be provided with an opportunity to play a bigger role at Coolcullen Stables this season.

   As well as being a key cog in Coolcullen's wheel, Cleary is also a hugely-respected breeze-up rider, and has a long and successful association with Eddie O'Leary's Lynn Lodge Stud outfit.

   In this week's Starfield Stud-sponsored Q&A, Cleary speaks about that famous day with Mac Swiney, his passion for young horses, including showjumpers, and how excited he is about the new season.

Brian Sheerin: Jim Bolger firmed up riding plans for the stable this week and confirmed that he was looking to yourself and Luke McAteer to fill the void left by Kevin Manning. That must have provided you with a boost.

Rory Cleary: It's great to hear it. That's the reason why I am still there working for Jim Bolger because, any time there has been a spare ride going, he never looked outside the yard. It's going to be an exciting start to the year and hopefully it all goes well and we can keep it that way.

What did it mean to ride a Classic winner aboard Mac Swiney in the Irish Guineas?

To ride a Classic winner, it means the world to any jockey, and it was amazing to do it. Because of Covid, the public weren't there but the jockeys made it really special for me as they came out in force and welcomed me back into the winner's enclosure. We did fancy Mac Swiney, especially when the rain came. It's not like he was a no-hoper. You know that when a man like Jim Bolger runs one in a big race, you are not there to make up the numbers, so it was amazing when it happened. It's something I'll never forget.

You are widely regarded as one of the busiest jockeys in the weighroom. Give us an idea of what a normal day looks like for you?

I ride out for Jim Bolger every morning and normally ride work for whoever I can on the Curragh in the afternoons. I was in Tally-Ho today to ride breeze-up horses for Lynn Lodge Stud and then came back to my own place in Kildare where I rode a few of my own horses.

That's a lot of miles.

It's a good few alright. Bolger's would be about a 50-minute drive every morning. I'd normally ride five or six lots in there and, on a work morning, I could ride a few more on top of that.

How much of an influence has Jim had on your career and what has it been like to be associated with the yard for over a decade now.

I'm with Jim for 12 years now and it's been unbelievable. Just the routine of the place, the facilities that he has, it makes it a great place to work. Not only has it been a great place to work, but it has been a great place to learn. I have been very lucky to be riding work with Kevin Manning and Gordon Power. There are plenty of top-class lads down there from the ground up. There are men there who would be able to train in their own right but they are happy working for Jim. For me, it's been a great place to be.

Mac Swiney, with Cleary in the saddle, winning the Irish 2000 Guineas | Racingfotos.com

You rode just one winner for Jim last season but it turned out to be in the G3 Eyrefield S. I suppose that shows that, even as the number two rider, top-class spares were going to fall your way, like we saw when you won the Irish 2000 Guineas aboard Mac Swiney.

Last year was a bit of a frustrating one for me to be honest. With the weights rising from 8st 4lbs to 8st 7lbs because of Covid, it took away those light weights from the big handicaps, which have been my bread and butter down through the years. Myself, Niall McCullagh and Wayne Lordan and a few others, we'd always have done light pretty easy, and in those big premier handicaps, you were bound to come in for some lovely spares. That didn't really happen last year with the weights going up. Take Verhoyen (GB) (Piccolo {GB}) for example, I won a Scurry H. on him because Billy Lee, his regular rider, couldn't do the weight. That was a nice spare to get. With the weights rising, it's gone very competitive and it's hard to get a ride in those races now.

You mentioned you do plenty of work with the breezers. Obviously they will be cranking up a notch in their work around this time of year. Are there any younger sires who have caught your attention at this early stage in the year?

The breeze-up side of things has gone very competitive and a lot of the consignors have really upped their game in recent years. They have bought the big pedigree horses by top sires so there's a lot of quality there. Yes, there's a few first-season sires on the scene and it's always interesting to see them coming along. I have ridden a Blue Point (Ire) for Lynn Lodge Stud and he's a nice horse, he's definitely quick, but I wouldn't be able to say I like the progeny of this sire or that sire until I've sat on a few of them. I haven't sat on a whole pile of horses by first-season sires but, on the Blue Point I rode, I liked him.

Do you ride for many other breeze-up yards?

I ride mainly for Eddie O'Leary. He actually got me started with the breezers and I'm doing it a long time for him now. I also ride a good bit for Katie Walsh at Greenhills Farm and she has had a lot of success in recent years.

Have you ridden many of the horses bound for Goffs Dubai Breeze Up Sale, the first one of the year?

I have and they are all big, good-looking dirt-bred horses who won't come into their own until they are 3-year-olds. They are horses who take a bit of time. Eddie has two going out there. I've sat on the two of them and they're impressive.

Would you breeze a few yourself?

I've two this year and hopefully it goes okay. One of them is showing plenty, so hopefully we get well-paid for her. She's by Raven's Pass and she goes really nicely. Hopefully she'll either go to the Tattersalls Guineas Sale or else the Goresbridge Sale at Fairyhouse. We've a nice filly by Highland Reel (Ire), but she'll take a bit more time. Hopefully she'll go to Fairyhouse.

It's not only the breezers that you trade. I know the showjumpers are close to your heart and you've had quite a bit of luck with them.

Myself and my wife, we have a small yard in Kildare and we breed sport horses. We produce them on for all sorts of phases; hunters, eventers and showjumpers. Some of them might just end up being leisure horses. We do a lot of breaking and pre-training as well.

Rory Cleary is all smiles after winning the Irish 2000 Guineas aboard Mac Swiney for Jim Bolger | Racingfotos.com

What would the market be like for a good showjumper?

We don't have the high-end horses but we're hoping to get into that bracket. In time, we'd like to get into the bigger and better horses but, at the moment, we're doing it on a small scale. Thankfully it's worked out well and we've traded horses to America, England, Holland, Germany and lots of other places so it's going well. Not only that, the people who have bought off us have come back and bought off us again.

And who would you pre-train for?

We mainly break horses in. I broke a lot of yearlings this year that will end up going breezing. I broke a lot of Cormac Farrell's horses and he plans on breezing a lot of those. They are all going well and he has a nice filly by Frosted going to Dubai. He has a nice bunch over both codes and is a busy man. He's constantly on the road and is doing very well for himself.

I spoke to your father Tom about a half an hour after you won the Guineas on Mac Swiney. Obviously, he couldn't be there because of Covid but you could hear what the win meant to him and the Cleary family as a whole.

It was a very proud moment for us all and I know they got a great kick out of it. You know, if it wasn't for the input of my parents, with Dad training the few horses and Mam starting us off on the ponies, who's to say we'd have had the passion for it. It's down to them that we developed the passion. For all the hard work they put in–they were never off the road bringing us showjumping, hunting or pony racing, and kept good horses under us–it meant a lot.

Have you ever thought about life beyond the saddle? Would you ever think of training like your father?

We'll pre-train anyway but, to be honest, I really enjoy the breeze-up side of things and the sport horses as well. My wife is a huge help to me in the yard and does all of the mucking out and, when I have them broken and riding, she rides them out with me as well. It's something we really enjoy doing together. We've the kids coming along and they've the ponies as well. We don't know what way we could but it will be something involved with horses, that's for sure.

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   In this week's Q&A with Brian Sheerin, D'Amato explained how, with the help of Niall Dalton, Craig Rounsefell and BBA Ireland's Michael Donohoe, he has built one of the most competitive stables in America.  

   Read about his approach to finding 'diamonds in the rough' on a budget, his training methods and much more. 

Brian Sheerin: You do extremely well with your imports from Britain and Ireland. What is it that you look for in form horses when you go about recruiting them from Europe?

Phil D'Amato: There are a number of factors. First and foremost, you need a horse that you think will handle a firm turf course and you can gauge that by the tracks that they have been running at in Europe and how they are handling that. If you don't have a good gauge on how they would handle the American turf, then you can check how the pedigree has done in the States and if that suggests they are prone to do better on firm ground. Number two, they definitely need a turn of foot. All turf races over here, from the quarter pole home, you need to show a good turn of foot. I definitely like to see that over horses who are more staying types in Europe. Horses who go to the lead in Europe and try to make all, those horses don't tend to do well in America, you need something with acceleration. Those are the big things for us. Conformation is another. I don't think conformation plays as big a part in Europe, especially with the amount of homebreds that race and the forgiving training surfaces, but in the States, conformation plays a much bigger role as our courses are not as forgiving. You need a horse with good conformation over here, one that's going to hit the ground square, so that it will be able to stay sound for you. 

You've built up a top-class recruitment team with Michael Donohoe and Niall Dalton coming up with a lot of the goods. 

You have to give them a lot of credit. I've also had a lot of good luck with Craig Rounsefell-all of those gentlemen know what to look for. They are trying to find the diamond in the rough and prove that you don't have to spend a lot of money to find a Going Global (Ire) (Mehmas {Ire}).They have good connections with the trainers and know who the sellers are. There are a lot of sellers in Britain and Ireland, as that's how a lot of these guys make their money given the prize-money over there, and not everyone can train for a Sheikh or somebody who is very wealthy. They need to trade so, in that respect, Niall, Michael and Craig know the people who will lead them the right way. They continue to buy horses from those people. 

And is it purely form horses that you buy from Europe or have you ever dipped your toe into breeze-up or even yearling markets?

We have bought a breeze-up horse or two but it's mostly horses who have run. I prefer to see a horse who has run at least twice and I am not a big fan of the horses who have run just once. To me, it seems like the horses who have run at least twice or more, they come over here to America and they seem to be hardier horses. You have a better handle on them and they tend to cope with the training better as well. They are better than the one-off horse who's run third or fourth. I just like horses who have been able to show their form a couple of times but, the flip side of that means that, getting to see a bit more often means that you have to pay that bit more. It has its pluses and minuses. 

I'd love to know what expectations you had for Going Global when you bought her after she won a Dundalk nursery off a mark of 70. Could you ever have envisaged that she'd improve to the level that she has?

Well, you know what, Michael Donohoe is really good friends with her former trainer Michael Halford, and we had bought horses from him before. Going Global had gotten sick previously and hadn't run well before she won at Dundalk but they had good reasons as to why she hadn't been running well. We knew that story coming into the race and then, when she did produce at Dundalk, it was time to strike. We had a little bit of extra insight into buying her and Halford liked the way that filly had been training for a while so he guided us in the right direction. That was the story there. 

You touched on the fact that a lot of trainers over here in Ireland where I am based, their business model accounts for trading horses, and Michael Halford would be up there with one of the best at that. Are there certain trainers you like to return to?

We have a good rapport with a lot of people and there are a lot of people who lead us the right way. It's the people who are going to leave a little extra in the tank who we are interested in buying off. That's the way I train my horses and I don't like to have them fully cranked first-time up. I like to let them develop through their races and I try to buy my horses off like-minded people. You need to try and buy a horse who is likely to continue to develop over here in the States. You know the yards that are crack first-time out specialists and I try to stay away from those trainers because all of their horses usually show everything they have first-time out. It's the guys who leave a little extra in the tank and like to let them develop race to race, those are the guys we like working with. 

What would be the key differences between the European horses compared to the American-breds who you have grown up with?

Size and conformation are the big things. To buy a dirt horse versus a grass horse, it's apples and oranges. You are looking at the horse totally differently. A dirt horse has a big thick bone, and a big hind end, gaskins and forearms, that can withstand training and pushing through the dirt. Your turf horse is a bit more angular, lighter of body and bone, just a little bit more agile. You need to put two different caps on when you are looking to buy a dirt horse versus a grass horse. 

And when it comes to acclimatising a European import, what is your approach to that?

They are all different and all treated as individuals. I like to gradually build them up and let them tell me when they are ready to do more and start breezing. Some horses take a month before you breeze them and others are ready to go within two weeks. They are all different. You can't put them in a cookie-cutter training style as they all needed to be treated differently. 

When you go down through the imports that you have done well with in America, there are no Galileos, Frankels or Dubawis in there, which makes the achievements all the more impressive. 

We mostly have horses by mid-range stallions, because we can afford them. We're not looking to buy a Galileo (Ire), Frankel (GB) or Dubawi (Ire) for half a million dollars, our budget is much less than that. Those are the stallions we look at, the ones that produce the goods but who are within our price range. We bought horses by Mehmas at the right time but now that stallion is moving up the ladder. It's all about leaving that to Michael and Niall, who are great at that. What's an advantage is, they work the yearling sales as well and watch these horses develop through all of the different yards. They have keen insights from when they hit the sales ground right up until when they race. That's a big advantage. 

American Oaks winner Rhea Moon (Ire) (Starspangledbanner {Aus}) is the latest star European import to grab the headlines for your stable. How did she come on your radar? In many ways she was quite unexposed given she'd only had the two starts in Ireland for Ken Condon. 

She ran a really good second to a Juddmonte colt [Straight Answer (GB) (Kodiac {GB})] on her second start at the Curragh and that horse came out and won a stakes race not too long afterwards. She had good sneaky form in that she came out of a live race and ran a good second. Again, she came from a good yard that develops them the right way instead of having them cranked to the gills first-time out, so she looked a nice prospect. We went after her and thankfully we were able to get her.

You touched on how important a turn of foot is on the American turf racing scene. She showed that when winning the Oaks. Where next for her now?

She's in steady training right now and we will probably run her some time in March or April with a view towards a prep for the Gamely S., that's a Grade I, which we have in late April. Hopefully that will launch her 4-year-old campaign and lead us towards the Breeders' Cup in November. 

Given the prize-money situation in Britain and Ireland, have you had much interaction with owners from this part of the world who are interested in placing their horses in training directly with you rather than selling them abroad?

I actually have started to get overseas owners going that route as opposed to me buying them. We'll see how that goes. I got a filly sent to me, called With Love (GB) (Territories {Ire}), who is owned by Atomic Racing in Ireland. 

Look at a filly like Bellabel (Ire) (Belardo {Ire}); she won a race worth €6,490 on her final start for Jessica Harrington in Ireland but has won almost $200,000 in America which is borderline insane. 

She was another nice pick by Michael Donohoe. He has many clients who have horses in training with Jessica and she recommended us to buy her as the owner wanted to sell. We were in the right place at the right time. We gave her a little break and she'll also be back towards the end of the month. Hopefully she's another nice prospect for us. 

Has it been a conscious decision for you to concentrate on turf racing in America over the dirt?

The concentration on turf has really come down to budget. In America, if you want to compete with the Bob Bafferts, Todd Pletchers and Steve Asmussens of the world, it costs a lot of money. Those gentlemen have many million-dollar yearlings to work with and, to try and compete against that, you have to have a ginormous budget. I am lucky to have good owners with good budgets but nowhere near that. You can buy a good European horse for a fifth or a tenth of that price. It seems that, in turf racing, too, these horses seem to have a little more longevity and can be campaigned for an extra year or two. The racing is really more about that last quarter burst over the punishing grind from start to finish on dirt. That's why these horses seem to last longer and get the chance to develop into stakes horses or, for the fillies, into breeding prospects. 

Where do you see the future of turf racing in America? It seems to be expanding and growing so it could be an exciting position to be in.

I really see that. I see an expansion of turf racing across the country for many of those reasons; the longevity of the horses and people seem to like the last quarter mile compared to dirt races that can be decided right out of the gate sometimes. People like to enjoy seeing their horses run over a long period of time and so turf racing fits that category. 

Could we ever see a Phil D'Amato-trained runner at Royal Ascot?

One day. That definitely is a dream. I know Wesley Ward has been successful at Royal Ascot. You definitely need to bring the right horse but, one day, it would be a dream for me to do something like that.

The post Phil D’Amato Q&A: ‘You Don’t Have To Spend A Lot To Find A Going Global’ appeared first on TDN | Thoroughbred Daily News | Horse Racing News, Results and Video | Thoroughbred Breeding and Auctions.

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   Foxwedge got the stallion arm of the operation up and running in 2012 and, since then, the roster has grown exponentially, with Capitalist and Extreme Choice some of the more recent additions to the farm.

   In this week's Q&A, Field explained the key principals that helped him build Newgate into what it is today, discussed the thinking behind partnering up with Rathbarry Stud to buy State Of Rest and much more.

Brian Sheerin: You have achieved a lot at Newgate in a little over a decade. If you could take me back to the beginning; what were your key principals in getting Newgate off the ground?

Henry Field: We didn't specifically set out to try and make Newgate a big stallion operation, it just grew organically. When we started out in 2010, we had a leased farm of about 200 acres, a couple of mares and borrowed a bit of money to get up and running. Thankfully, through my good friend James Harron, who had a good client in the Bateman family, they boarded a few mares on the farm. The Bateman family also gave me the opportunity to syndicate Foxwedge (Aus), a good stallion who shuttled between Australia and Europe, and that's what really got us going on the stallion front. At the same time, I had built up a really good relationship with Gavin Murphy and Tom Ryan of SF Bloodstock and we decided to embark on a joint venture at that time and build Newgate with SF Bloodstock as a major partner. Matthew Sandblom, one of my oldest clients, is an educational entrepreneur in Australia, and he also came on board in the partnership with Newgate. Between us all, we built Newgate into what is something pretty cool.

In many ways, you ripped up the playbook. Do you take time to look back at what you have achieved or are you someone who concentrates only on the future?

Always looking to the future and always trying to get better. The key to our success has been our personnel and the team. Obviously our farm is headed by Jim Carey, who I was lucky enough to work with at Coolmore 20 years ago, and I think he's the best stud manager I've ever worked with. I couldn't believe it when he came on board to work with us and he has been a huge part of our success story. On the bloodstock and sales side of things, we have Bruce Slade and Tony Williams, who are very experienced guys. Between us all, we've got a strong team that allows me to grow the business. I obviously work very closely with my partners in growing the business and, having the likes of Jim, Bruce and Tony managing the day-to-day running of things, that allows me to use my time on growing Newgate. It's grown exponentially since we started out.

You obviously built your brand with speed horses in Australia but now seem to be diversifying the business with more stoutly-bred horses. State Of Rest (Ire) is a good recent example of that. That may have come as a surprise to a few people. Why is it that you felt he'd be a good fit for Newgate?

Australian speed sires have been the bread and butter of the Australian sires' table for decades. Most people would agree that what we do best in Australia is speed horses and we probably have the best speed horses in the world down here. It is a high quality product, the Australian speed stallions, and it has really got our product going in Newgate, with Extreme Choice (Aus), Capitalist (Aus) and Deep Field (Aus), who have been so dominant here and in Hong Kong and broader Asia. Russian Revolution (Aus), the champion first-season sire in Australia last season, is another example, so they are all very fast horses, but we had been talking about diversifying over the past number of years as we felt there was an opportunity to bring in a high-class middle-distance horse into the operation. They are hard to get and obviously Coolmore and Godolphin have a stranglehold on the majority of the high-class horses who are retired to stud in Europe each year. Conceptually, I think that horses who can perform well in Australian conditions, they are often the ones who make the best sires and the fact that State Of Rest was good enough to come down and win the Cox Plate, our premier weight-for-age race where he beat our champion three-year-old Anamoe (Aus) and our horse of the year Verry Elleegant (NZ), it showed that the horse had top-class mile-and-a-quarter talent. Not only that, the fact that he did it after landing a Grade 1 in Saratoga, it showed that he had the tenacity and toughness that comes with travelling all over the world and succeeding at the top level, which is very important for us here in Australia. When State Of Rest became available with Rathbarry Stud, we jumped at the opportunity to partner with them to buy him. He went on and confirmed himself an outstanding racehorse when winning Group 1s in France and at Royal Ascot. But we had taken a view that, if we are going to stand a middle-distance horse, it has to be the right one for Australian conditions, and we are confident that State Of Rest is the right fit.

So this had been on your mind before State Of Rest became available?

Yes, we had discussed it with the team and were actively trying to find a middle-distance horse with the right attributes, but obviously they are hard to find. As soon as State Of Rest won the Cox Plate, it became obvious that he was the play. Also, Nick Williams, who is a big owner in Australia and in Joseph O'Brien's yard, told me the massive opinion that Joseph had of the horse before the Cox Plate so that performance did not come as a major surprise and the wheels had been set in motion. What the horse did after the Cox Plate, in winning Group 1s in France and at Royal Ascot, confirmed that he was a great investment for us and our partners in the China Horse Club.

Does State Of Rest represent a new challenge in terms of marketing him in Australia as he is something different for Australian breeders?

I think he will be received extremely well. For a brand like ours, that really specialises in Australian speed, for us to go and buy a Cox Plate winner, I think people take note of that in a very positive way. This is not a decision that was taken lightly. It has been well thought out and I think people notice that and I think they will support the horse heavily. I am sure that State Of Rest will be booked out within weeks of announcing his fee for this year.

You have set the rock-solid foundations with your sprint stallions at Newgate but, along with State Of Rest joining the roster, it seems as though there is plenty to look forward to on the track with the more stoutly-bred Militarize (NZ) (Dundeel {NZ}) shaping up to be a smart runner.

The reality is that the Australian sires' championship is dominated every year by the fastest horses, for the most part.There are some exceptions to the rule and there are some very good shuttle stallions, no more successful than Danehill (Ire) and more recently More Than Ready, so there are examples of very potent shuttle sires. Then there are some very successful middle-distance stallions, the likes of Zabeel (NZ) and So You Think (NZ), along with a horse in Melbourne, Shamus Award (Aus), who started from a low base. We don't want to be long in these types of horses but when there's one we have belief and high conviction in, we're certainly happy to take them on board.

What does the future hold for Militarize? He looks like a smart prospect.

He's more of a seven-furlong to a mile style two-year-old. There are two Group 1 races in the Sydney Autumn Carnival, the Group 1 Sires Produce Stakes and the Group 1 Champagne Stakes. We've won both races before and they are the two races we could target with him. Hopefully that will set him up for being an important middle-distance three-year-old for us.

The stallion partnerships are obviously very popular in Australia but what is it that you set out to buy when sourcing a yearling that you hope to stand at stud one day?

For me, first and foremost, they've got to be athletes. I'm far more focussed on buying runners and horses who are built mechanically-muscle tone, athleticism and class-how I like them. I probably work hardest to try and buy the racehorse first and am a big believer that horses can make their own pedigrees. It's a big bonus when these horses have a page behind them, and we'd never underestimate that, but I try to buy the best racehorse we can. The best stallion prospects are almost always the best racehorses.

It's almost becoming a buzz word in Europe, 'we need to be more like Australia,' but in reality, that's one of the few countries where spending a million dollars on a yearling can be justified given the prize-money on offer.

For sure. The reality is, it only makes sense if you are buying stallions and you won't last very long unless you are producing the goods and buying horses who end up on the roster as it's a very expensive game. We don't take for granted that one or two bad years could really put us in a bad spot. We've had a huge amount of success doing it and, alongside China Horse Club and our other partners, we've raced 12 colts who have gone on to be stallions in a seven-year period. We're probably averaging on purchasing 20 colts a year and, at the end of the day, results are what matter so we're lucky to have had success. With success, it gives longevity to the programme.

What would a day in the life of Henry Field look like? You are dealing with a lot of powerful people and there must be a lot of communication involved to keep everything moving in the right direction? If there's a lot of pressure involved, you seem to be dealing with it very well.

Obviously when the horses are winning, and we've been on a massive run with our two-year-olds this year, that makes it feel a lot easier. When they are losing, it can be a bit lonely. The one thing I would say is that we are massively selective when it comes to choosing our partners. Each and every one of them are outstanding and we're all close friends. We've a very strong social group and, even though we have some of the most successful business titans in Australia within the group, we've all got mutual respect for each other. I'll tell you what else is great, whether we have a good or a bad day, we all stay strong. We've been together for long enough that we can ride the ups and downs. We share the ambition to have success, which is imperative to keep the whole thing rolling, but we also have close relationships and friendships with the people who are involved in these partnerships. That's a wonderful thing.

You were in attendance at some of the biggest meetings in Britain last season courtesy of Artorius (Aus) and State Of Rest. What were your key takeouts from that trip?

For Australians, taking  horses to Royal Ascot is probably the ultimate in racing. It was an honour to win the Prince Of Wales's Stakes with State Of Rest and come so close to winning the Platinum Jubilee Stakes with Artorius, who got held up before flashing home and just failing to get there. Bottom line, you need a hell of a good horse to take up there. There's no point in bringing a second-rater. We'll certainly be trying again this year and Artorius will go back for another crack at the Platinum Jubilee. Hopefully with an ounce of luck, he can be winning there this year.

Artorius could be earning a lot more money staying in Australia but international competition is what underpins meetings like Royal Ascot.

I've got great admiration for the Japanese, who you could make the same argument for. They could keep their best horses on home shores and run them for a lot more prize-money but they like to travel. We have an obligation to travel our horses. The quality of Australian racing at this point, especially up to a mile, has never been better. We have some very powerful genetics. There is a lot of wealth in the Australian bloodstock industry and that has created a situation, a bit like in Japan 20 years ago, where the Australians are going over and buying some of the best northern hemisphere mares in the world. I think we are breeding some great horses and almost have a responsibility to bring them all over the world and showcase how good our product is.

And I understand there is an exciting chapter about to be written with Extreme Choice?

We are breeding northern hemisphere mares to Extreme Choice, who is statistically the best stallion in Australia and running at 17 per cent stakes horses to runners. He's obviously had fertility problems but, from his first crop, he's had a Golden Slipper winner and many more top-class runners. He's a phenomenal stallion so we are breeding some mares on the northern hemisphere time to him and have set an ambitious goal for one of them to win a two-year-old race at Royal Ascot. We've set a long range plan with Extreme Choice and look forward to bringing some of his better two-year-olds to Royal Ascot to take on the best juveniles in Europe in a couple of years. That's certainly one of the biggest ambitions for our partnerships, to take on the best two-year-olds in Europe and show them that ours are the best in the world!

You touched on the sales; Newgate enjoyed a great start to the new year at Magic Millions.

We had 54 offered and sold 54 at Magic Millions. We were the leading vendor, once again, and also the leading buyer as we bought 18 colts for our syndicate. They will race in our partnership and hopefully we'll have a lot of success and one or two of those will end up being stallions at Newgate. It was a very busy sale but certainly one I came away from feeling quite satisfied that we did a lot of good business at.

Who would you say your biggest influence has been?

Doing the Godolphin Flying Start programme provided me with a huge head start. From there, I got a great position with Coolmore, where I was given a lot of responsibility and opportunity. To have gained experience with two of the preeminent global stallion operations set me up well for starting Newgate. But as individuals go, I started out in this industry with Gai Waterhouse and she hammered into me the importance of work ethic and integrity. There was no better school to learn the basics than in Gai's. I only spent a short time working with Tim Hyde in Ireland but I think he left one of the biggest impressions on me. He educated my eye and, a lot of the success we have had in buying horses in Australia down through the years, I would attribute that to Tim. It was such an honour to walk around the sales complex with Tim. There are no finer horsemen than him. He took me under his wing for about six months but it was a time I will never forget. I've learned a lot about horses from a lot of good people but he really taught me more than anyone else in this industry. The basis of every horse I buy now, it stems from what I learned from Tim. The other people who have been extremely important to my career have to be my business partners, Gavin Murphy and Tom Ryan of SF Bloodstock. They are two of the smartest guys in the game and they make me look very intelligent. It wouldn't matter what country a mare or stallion is in, they are the sharpest guys I've met at valuing horses and buying and selling. I would definitely say that the SF team have been a phenomenal help in driving the success of Newgate, along with my other partner Matthew Sandblom, a self-made businessman. It's very easy for me to say we've built this great business at Newgate but I can assure you that, without Gavin, Tom and Matthew, there'd be no Newgate today.

How would you define success at Newgate?

Success for us is a continuing focus on being the best we can be. I think in this business, all the marketing and sales that you do, none of that really matters. All that matters is the winning post. If I had to define success for Newgate in two words it would be the winning post. I must add that another lightbulb moment came about five years ago when I was lucky enough to visit Arthur Hancock's Kentucky Stone Farm. Tom Ryan took me out there and their way of raising horses is very organic and natural. It goes right back to how it was done decades back and, over the past five years at Newgate, there would be very few farms with a better record than ours at raising horses. I would credit that to our methodology of raising horses hard and tough. The value of bloodstock had sky-rocketed in the past decade or two and a lot of horses are being raised a bit soft as a result. Arthur raises his horses as naturally as possible and he gets big, strong and tough horses as a result. Certainly at Newgate, there can't be many farms that raise their horses in bigger paddocks and in bigger mobs than what we do. I am sure that has played a major role in our success. All facets of this business are important but the winning post trumps all. Whether that's for your stallions or the racehorses that you are breeding, winning races and winning good races is really all that matters.

What has been your best day in racing?

Being involved in the ownership of two Golden Slipper winners in Stay Inside and Capitalist. Winning Golden Slippers is the ultimate for us so, being involved in the ownership of two of them, that is something that was very special.

Newgate has exploded into a global brand and you've achieved a lot in 10 years but it seems like there is still a lot more to come. You are clearly quite hungry still.

I feel like we've built a great platform. We started off 10 years ago with a dream and now we've got great foundations built. Naturally, if you look at where we might be in another 10 years' time, we're starting from a far better position than when we set out in this business.

The post Henry Field Q&A: “The Winning Post Trumps All” appeared first on TDN | Thoroughbred Daily News | Horse Racing News, Results and Video | Thoroughbred Breeding and Auctions.

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As a trainer, Lacy sent out hundreds of winners from Rhode, County Offaly, including Ingabelle (GB), who later became a hugely important foundation mare at Ballylinch Stud.

His sons Barry and Tony rode multiple winners for the stable down through the years. It is also here where the late, great Pat Smullen honed his craft, before being crowned Irish champion jockey on nine separate occasions. 

While Tony has relocated to America, where he holds the role of Vice President of Sales at Keeneland, Barry remains an integral part of the family breeding operation, and the pair combined to produce last year's leading 2-year-old Persian Force (Ire) (Mehmas {GB}) from €1,200 mare Vida Amorosa (Ire) (Lope De Vega {Ire}).

Persian Force has recently retired to Tally-Ho Stud, an operation that the Lacys have a close association with, and he will stand for €10,000 in his debut season. 

Tom and Barry sat down with Brian Sheerin for this week's Starfield Stud-sponsored Q&A where they discussed their rollercoaster year with Persian Force, mating plans for Vida Amorosa and much more. 

Brian Sheerin: It was a special night at the ITBA Awards with you taking home the small breeder of the year award for your exploits with Persian Force.

Tom Lacy: Persian Force was a small foal but, every day we went out to him, we could see him thriving. He grew into a lovely foal but he wasn't nearly as nice a foal as his brother [Gubbass (Ire)]. The main reason why we went back to Mehmas was because Gubbass was such a brilliant foal. When you think about it, we brought an unraced mare to an unproven stallion, who never had a runner before, and then went back to him the following year as well. We had two foals by a stallion who never had a runner. It could have been a disaster and, nine times out of 10 it would have been a disaster, but Mehmas has worked big time. 

BS: You said before that you broke the golden rule in bringing an unproven mare to an unproven stallion. 

TL: Absolutely. She was a well-bred mare, by Lope De Vega, and a fine big mare to match. Persian Force may not have been a big horse but he was full of courage. Jesus, he gave his best every time he ran. He'd put his head down, his ears back and he'd kill himself trying. That's number one for me, a horse who has a bit of fight and courage. But because the first foal was a good foal, I went back to Mehmas. Now, if it had been the other way round, and Persian Force came out first, I wouldn't have gone back. I was talking to Tony [O'Callaghan, of Tally-Ho Stud] who said he reckons Persian Force will end up being 16hh. You have to remember that these are only babies, they are only 2-year-olds when they are retired to stud, so there's plenty of growing in him. He's plenty big enough as he is but they reckon he'll grow, just like Mehmas did when he was retired to stud. 

BS: So who owes who a drink at this stage? 

Barry Lacy: Let's put it this way, when Mehmas went to stud first, it was the usual craic with everyone rolling in behind the first-season sire. But we didn't use Mehmas the first year he went to stud because we didn't have a mare suitable. It was in his second year at stud where we used him and got Gubbass and his third year when we got Persian Force. So, we used Mehmas for his smallest books of mares. Persian Force was always going to be Mehmas's best 2-year-old last year, because he'd very little else to run for him. He didn't cover huge books during Covid either, so, he could have a quiet year this year but then we're expecting to see him take off again next year and beyond because it's from 2021 when people started sending him the better quality mares on the €25,000 stud fee. So, when you're asking who owes who a drink, I'd say we're in front!

BS: Not too many people are in front of the O'Callaghans!

TL: Sure, we're always arguing. They came over here to look at Persian Force as a foal. The three boys-Tony, Roger and Henry-but they never said a word about the horse, whether he was good, bad or indifferent. They came in here and watched racing for the afternoon and never mentioned the horse any more but then went and paid €75,000 for him at the sales. They were going to buy him no matter what. They gave away the game because, when they say nothing, you know they like them. If they found any hole in Persian Force at all, you could be sure they'd have made a big thing about it! It was the same with Gubbass. They came over to look at him and never said a word, went to the sales and bought him as well. They are great men. 

BS: Between Gubbass and Persian Force, you have had a lot of fun over the past few years. 

BL: I'd say that one of the biggest kicks we have gotten in racing was watching Gubbass winning the Super Sprint S. at Haydock. He was in the Tattersalls Ireland September Yearling Sale, which took place at Newmarket because of Covid. I asked Roger [O'Callaghan] if we could sell him under the Tally-Ho banner and he said it was no problem if I went over and helped them out at the sale. The morning that we're loading up Gubbass to bring him over for the sale, a call comes through to say that Pat Smullen has sadly passed away. Pat had worked here for years and is obviously a local hero. Roger told me that, if I couldn't go to the sale, he would understand completely. I gave Roger my word that I'd help him out at the sale and it's not like I could go to the funeral in any case because of Covid so we continued with the plan. We thought he was a 50 grand yearling all day long but he only made 26 or 27 grand at the sale. We always felt that he was a racehorse so when he won first time up and then went on to the Super Sprint, we were delighted. The other thing is, we are a small operation and if we approached one of the bigger outfits to do a foal share, they'd just tell us to go away and not be annoying them. So what do you do? We can't go spending 30 or 40 grand on a proven sire as we had an unproven mare at the time and, the only thing we had to go by on the pedigree is that her half-sister Queen Of Power had an Acclamation colt who made €130,000 as a foal. He ended up being a good horse for Charlie Hills and is probably a major reason why we went to a son of Acclamation (GB) in Mehmas with Vida Amorosa (Ire). 

BS: It's often the case that a mare catches fire just when she's gone too old. You don't have that problem with Vida Amorosa.

BL: She's just turned nine and is in foal to Starman (GB). It was this time last year when we were over in Tally-Ho and Roger said to me, 'Bar, this 2-year-old [Persian Force] could be the real deal.' I said, 'great, let's send the mare back to Mehmas.' He says, 'No, you won't, you'll go to Starman.' You hear it time and time again, that this horse is good and that horse is good, but you want to see them go and prove it. I thought, fine, let Persian Force prove he's a good one and, if he is as good as everyone says he is, then we can always go to Mehmas the following year. 

BS: We're busy putting together our mating plans pieces in TDN, so what plans have ye made on that front?

BL: The bottom line is, if Vida Amorosa goes in foal to Mehmas, whether she has a filly or a colt, it doesn't matter. In actual fact, the filly is probably worth as much if not more to us. It's the logical choice. If you don't go to Mehmas, where do you go?

TL: As I said to Barry, you could go to Acclamation, the sire of Mehmas. It's the same line. He's had a great run as a sire. 

BS: How many mares do you have to make mating plans for?

BL: We've only got two mares to foal this year, the smallest bunch we've ever had. We'd a lovely Danehill Dancer (Ire) mare, whose first foal ended up being Different Gravey (Ire) for Nicky Henderson, but she's retired now. She looked like she was going to be a very good National Hunt broodmare at one stage but it was a total disaster. We bought a lovely Australia (GB) mare last year but she died foaling. That's why we've the lowest number of mares we've ever had between retiring mares and just a bit of bad luck. 

TL: Some of them just weren't up to scratch. They were only ordinary and you don't want to be breeding ordinary mares. If they're not good, they're a waste of time. 

BS: Getting back to the awards night, John O'Connor of Ballylinch Stud presented you with your trophy, which is quite significant given he purchased Ingabelle off you. Of course, Ingabelle has gone on to be an important foundation mare at Ballylinch. 

TL: We bred Ingabelle and sold a half share in her before she ever hit the racecourse but, when her racing career was over, her owners didn't have any interest in breeding from her so we sold her. If we didn't sell the half-share to begin with, we'd never have sold her ourselves, but we couldn't hang on to her. I saw Ballylinch put up a lovely picture congratulating me on the award on social media the other day and they mentioned Ingabelle and how she became an important foundation mare for them. We go back a good few years.

BL: She was a very significant filly. I used to ride her out every morning before school. She was a great barometer for me. For years afterwards, you'd ride something and you could say, 'yea, that's nice, but it's no Ingabelle.' I was very lucky that I was able to sit up on something so good at a young age. It's like sitting into a good car. The good horses are very hard to find and the problem is, for a place like this, once you stumble across one, you have to sell to keep the whole thing going. They are hard to hang on to. Dad would have had 10 people working here through the '70s to the '90s. That's lots of wages and lots of owners to look after. There were 40 or 50 horses riding out here every morning for over 30 years.

TL: We had some great times. It's a great lifestyle and you get a great kick out of when things go well. 

BS: When did you retire?

BL: You haven't had your trainers' licence for over 10 years now, Dad. 

TL: Staff was the biggest problem. It was impossible to get staff. If you don't have good riders, you're at nothing, because a bad rider would ruin a good horse. You need good lads riding out.

BL: We had some great people working here and, during the mid-'90s, Pat Smullen was our stable jockey. Every lad in his 60s or 70s around here, they either worked here or in the bog during the summer at one stage in their lives. 

BS: Do you miss the training, Tom?

TL: You miss good horses. I remember I needed a companion for Ingabelle so I went and bought a horse for 1,200 pounds at the sales. He turned out to be Welsh Bard and he was as good as Ingabelle. He was a late foal, which is why we got him cheap, but he won a 2-year-old race in May at Down Royal. I can remember Declan Gillespie rode him to win at Down Royal and, when he got down off him, he said, 'how good is Ingabelle!' He'd been riding the two of them work so he knew exactly what we had.

BL: That was the Monday and Ingabelle was running at Tipperary on the Thursday. I can remember looking up at the boards when I was leading her around the parade ring and she was 14-1. By the time they got down to the start, she was the 5-2 favourite. She bolted up by five lengths. Days like that were brilliant. 

BS: Could you sum up your emotion for being recognised by your peers at the ITBA Awards?

TL: Honest to God, no. None, that's the truth now. You work hard and enjoy the whole year and I looked forward to him running the very same as if I owned him myself. I looked forward so much to seeing him run. We went over to see him win at Newbury and got to speak to Richard Hannon before the race. He told us to come into the winner's enclosure three hours before the race, unbelievably cocky.He knew he had a good horse. It's very difficult to get a good mare, very difficult. Go to the sales and try and buy a good mare, the majority of them are no good and, the ones you want, you can't buy them. 

BL: The dam sire is hugely important. We'd been on the lookout for a Lope De Vega mare for years before we bought Vida Amorosa. 

BS: Has there been many inquiries about the mare?

BL: There have been enquiries but no real offers. 

TL: A few people rang to see if we were interested in selling her but we're not. If you were to sell a mare like that, it would be very easy to flutter away the money and you'd have nothing to show for it, whereas you'd find it hard to find one as good again. Never say never, but we're not thinking of selling her. 

BS: Have you got a mare to send Persian Force this year?

BL: There's a Red Clubs (Ire) mare out there called Style (Ire). Her son, Pagan (Ire) (Sir Prancealot {Ire}), won twice for William Haggas and is doing well out in Saudi Arabia now. She could go to Persian Force. 

BS: You touched on Pat Smullen, Rhode's most famous son, earlier. You gave him his first winner and I'm sure you've many fond memories of him.

TL: He used to come up here every Saturday and Sunday and go racing pony racing on the Sundays as well. He'd get a fiver a ride and ended up being a champion pony race rider. When he was old enough, I brought him up to the Turf Club to get his licence. I remember that they were slow about giving him his licence because pony racing was against the rules but, anyway, after his first or second race riding for me, I knew he was good. He rode like a good jockey from an early stage. After he rode in two or three races for us, he rode everything for us, because we felt even back then that he was as good if not better than the rest of the other jockeys. And he was. He never rode a bad race for us. You could never blame the jockey when Pat rode for you. 

BL: He was here about two years before he had his first winner on the track which was May 1993. I remember going up to Dundalk with Pat where he rode one for us to finish fourth. He was beaten three short heads, it was a blanket finish, but Mick Kinane wouldn't have rode our horse any better. You often see the ride of the month going to a winning ride but this ride, to finish fourth, was as good a ride as there was. I remember coming down off the stand and thinking that Pat Smullen was brilliant. He was claiming seven pounds but he was a stone ahead of any other apprentice out there.

TL: He was heavy as a claimer and he used to live in the sauna here. I remember thinking he would be a good bet to be champion jockey. I would have got great odds. 

BL: There was no Curragh messing with Pat. His parents kept his feet on the ground and he was champion apprentice here twice. He went from here to John Oxx's and then, after a year there, went riding for Dermot Weld. 

TL: I used to tell him to communicate what he thought after a race and he was brilliant at it. Tell the trainer, truly, this fella wants further or whatever. That's what you're being paid for. Don't just jump down. Tell them exactly what you think. 

BL: That's what Pat was renowned for. He was able to explain and he understood how to talk to trainers and owners. That's why they loved him.

BS: Rhode has punched above its sporting weight for years with Pat flying the flag for the village and then last year La Petite Coco (Ire), Minzaal (Ire) and Persian Force, all of whom were bred in the area, recording major successes on the track. You must be proud of the village.

TL: There's three group winners from a five-mile radius. There's four stud farms in the area, with Frances Smullen there as well, and it's only a matter of time before she produces a real good one. 

BS: There's plenty more to look forward to with Vida Amorosa. Has there been any reports on her Inns Of Court (Ire) 2-year-old?

BL: He was bought by Amo Racing. He was a lovely horse. Physically, he was probably the nicest foal out of the mare but he won't be as precocious as the other lads. 

TL: He won't be early, he'll take a bit of time. 

BL: He looks as though he'll be at his best at three. Even at the Orby, he looked a little leggy. 

BS: It's obvious that you both have a great relationship with the O'Callaghans.

BL: They're brilliant. A little horse we bred, Roundabout Magic (Ire) won a little race at Lingfield on New Year's Eve a couple of years ago. He is only a pony and Hollie Doyle looked big on him. Anyway, he hadn't crossed the line five minutes and Tony rings, asking if he had a half-brother. 'He does,' says I, 'but he's by Morpheus.' 'Sure I'll come down and have a look at him,' Tony says. On he comes, to look at this Morpheus yearling. We had gelded him because Morpheus was a complete disaster and we were half thinking of sending this lad to the store sales. But Tony came looking at this lad with a view towards breezing him after his half-brother won a little Class 6 at Lingfield. They didn't buy him because we gelded him, but that's how game he is, he'd come here on New Year's Eve to look at buying a little Morpheus of ours to breeze. They're brilliant people to work with.

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Brian Sheerin: The first thing that pops up when you log on to your website is a quote from Timeform, which describes you as, 'A conjurer of a trainer. One who can transform an apparently moderate animal into a frequent winner.' Another compliment that could be paid to you is that few trainers would contemplate trying to improve one that you trained.

Stuart Williams: To be honest, there are not many who have done better when they have left. There are plenty who have won races but they don't usually improve so it's something I'm proud of. We try to get the best out of every horse we have.

BS: What is the secret to rejuvenating and doing so well with the already-tried horses who make up the lion's share of your stable?

SW: We try to train each horse individually. It's easier to do that when you have a smaller yard like ours which is never home to more than 50 horses at any given time. It's easier for us to train them individually and we try to work out what suits each horse individually and make it work best in our routine. It's one of those things where I have gone down this route because I had to in order to survive. We started training with one horse. We've never had a big influx of yearlings so we've been forced to stock our stable with the older horses and the used horses at the sales. We've tried to do the best we can with each horse. It's all about trying to work out what makes each horse tick and trying to make them as happy as possible. If you can get them fit and healthy, they will produce it on the racetrack.

BS: So was it a case of needs must or was it a conscious decision to try and target the middle-tier horses at the sales in the hope of improving them?

SW: A bit of both, really. It has changed a lot in that the foreign market has become so strong and now the used horses are very hard to buy at the sales. In reality, 80% of the horses-in-training are rated below 80, so that's the standard of the breed and it has been that way for about 40 years. If we are looking at 80% of the horse population being rated less than 80 and everyone, including myself, wanting to operate in the top 20%, that's hard to do when you can only afford to buy a few yearlings every year. You are not going to beat the odds very often and get many of those yearlings rated above 80 if you are only buying a handful of them. If you want to be able to run at the big meetings and to compete for decent prize-money, you can go to the horses-in-training sales. Ten years ago, we could go and buy a 4-year-old and upwards rated 80 for 20 or 30 grand. If we could just improve it a little bit, we had a horse rated 90 who had a chance of winning a decent pot on a Saturday afternoon.

BS: What impact has the strength of the sales had on your business? It's obviously been a good avenue to trade horses for some people but the flip side of that is recruiting fresh talent has become arduous.

SW: The market has changed. We have a different funding system in Britain where they are basically relying on eight or more runners in all of these races and it's turning into quite a big problem because the fixture list has grown exponentially since the introduction of these all-weather tracks, and the horses who filled that programme are now being sold. It is not just the top horses, either, as it is the second- and even third-tier horses who are being sold abroad. If you looked at the horses-in-training sales from last year, you'd be amazed by how many horses were sold to continue their careers abroad.

BS: What is life at the coalface as a trainer in Britain like right now?

SW: To be honest, I think it's very difficult. It has never been a lucrative business, apart from if you are operating at the very top, and it's the same for the jockeys. The top 15 to 20 jockeys are making a good living whereas the rest of them are just about breaking even. It's the same for the trainers. It amazes me how many trainers manage to survive. It's a great lifestyle but it's very hard work and you put everything into it. I love it and I don't know how to do anything else. But it's becoming even more difficult to survive now than it was 15 or 20 years ago.

BS: In the face of that, I see you said you are expanding and are looking for more staff on Twitter.

SW: Everyone is short of staff. Any yard in Newmarket, there's a vacancy. John Gosden, Godolphin, everyone. We've changed our working practices to try and improve the work-life balance. None of my staff do a complete full week any week. We try to balance that against the fact that we need to look after these horses 24/7.

BS: Is that your biggest headache as a trainer, the recruiting and retaining of staff?

SW: Staff is a huge problem for everyone. I've been in Newmarket for a long time. When they had the stable lads strike, the wages doubled overnight, which resulted in a huge influx of Irish people coming over to work in England. Very few Irish people work in England now. There's more money, less racing and less hours by working in Ireland. The jockeys come over, and Ross Coakley and Oisin Orr are a good example of very good jockeys who haven't quite made it at the top tier of Irish racing doing very well over here, but very few staff come to work in England. In the 1980s, we'd a huge influx of females getting into the sport and, while they still come, it's not in the same numbers. In 2004 we'd a huge influx of Asian workers but now they can't come anymore. We have an indigenous population who are encouraged to stay on at school until at least 19 or 20 years of age and not many have ever ridden ponies as kids. Most of them are too big to ride Flat horses as well. There's a perfect storm developing where there aren't the people there to do the job.

BS: Obviously there's going to be turnover in the training ranks, as there is with any profession, but I know you were sad to see Chris Wall call time on his career.

SW: We're going down the route of the super trainer where everyone wants to have their horse with William Haggas, John Gosden, Roger Varian or the new kid on the block. Really good trainers like Chris, who is a smashing fella, saw his numbers dwindle down through the years. It's hard to see the logic behind any owner, who may have two or three horses, sending them to a big stable. You are going to be such a small fish in a big pond. When my owners want to ring up and find out about one of their horses, they ring me, they don't ring one of the assistants, the head lad or an agent. I think that should count for something. You have people like Rae Guest, George Margarson, Chris Wall, who wouldn't have had big strings, but proved that they are perfectly capable of training group horses once they have the right ammunition.

BS: How do you go about leveling the playing field?

SW: They brought in the one meeting a day rule for jockeys. Some of them like it and others don't but, for safety reasons, I think that was a good idea. A lot of the time, we have Lingfield on a Friday afternoon and Wolverhampton later that evening. It was a mad rush to get up the M6 on a Friday afternoon but everyone was doing it. If you could bring in something to help trainers in a similar way, I don't think that would be a bad thing. I'm not sure how feasible this would be but perhaps limiting trainers to a certain number would be a start. Two years ago, for example, the Gosdens had 253 horses in the horses-in-training book and that excluded 2-year-olds. They've 191 boxes at Clarehavan so you know that all of those horses are not stabled there. A lot of the horses are based at pre-training facilities and come in when they are ready. If you were the BHA, you could possibly say that, 'we are licensing you to train from this many boxes,' plus a few in and out of training. If you wanted to train 500 horses, which some do, you'd need close to 500 boxes. That would make it slightly more difficult.

BS: The role of the satellite trainer has never been as important to the super powers.

SW: And they require staff as well. The pre-training yards have got the staff and they don't have the overheads or the restrictions or the BHA inspecting their yards. It's a lot cheaper for them to run their business. I was talking to Malcolm Bastard about this recently, as one of my owners has a couple of horses down there with him, and he would make far more in a year pre-training than I would make as a trainer.

BS: A lot of guys' backs are against the wall and would say that, outside the top bracket, it's impossible to make a living as a trainer if you are not a trader. So what is it that entices so many people to soldier on?

SW: Listen, I enjoy it. I enjoy being with the horses and talking with the owner and going racing. I left school when I was 14 and have never known anything else. I've always wanted to be in racing and, I've been doing it so long, I probably wouldn't be able to do anything else! It's difficult and the first thing we do every year is try and make sure we don't go out of business.

BS: What measures do you take to ensure that doesn't happen?

SW: We don't go on fantastically-expensive holidays and we don't have a lavish lifestyle. We make sure we break even on the training fees and try to vet all of the owners who come to us in order to make sure we are not left with any bad debts. We've been very lucky in that regard and most of the people pay on time. We put a lot of work into that on a daily basis and the last thing you want is someone not paying at the end of the month. We also try to be as cute as we can with the placement of horses in order to win as much prize-money as we can for the owners and ourselves.

BS: We could be here all night talking about prize-money. It's obviously quite bad in Britain, as it is in Ireland, compared to all of the other major racing jurisdictions. You associate your stable as being well able to land a gamble. Has that propped up the business in light of the terrible prize-money?

SW: When we first started training, it did. It's not part of the business anymore because it's almost impossible to get any kind of money on these days. When I first started training, we built landing touches on horses into the business plan if we could hopefully identify a few horses who we felt could win and then we'd back them accordingly on the right days. But now we just try and place the horses where they have their best possible chance to win. It annoys me a little bit that people brand me as a gambling trainer. If you land a gamble, you get praised on one side for knowing the time of day but it's a black mark on the other side because some owners won't want to go to you because they'll think all you want to do is try and land gambles all of the time. That's not the case at all. We do the best we can with each individual horse.

BS: As you said in the Racing Post the other day, it has become a lot harder to get big money on. You also spoke about the impact the affordability checks are having on the industry.

SW: I think we need a radical change. Our two main income streams are from the owners and the punters. At the moment in Britain, our owners are recovering between six and eight pence in the pound on average. The money spent by punters comes back through the levy and the media rights and comes back into racing through different avenues. In the gross profits era that we're in at the moment, we need punters to lose. So, your owners are losing 92 to 94 pence in the pound and your second biggest customer is the punter and you want him to lose as well. That's a crazy way to run a business. It's just bonkers.

We need to somehow get nearer to the Australian model. It's more accessible now than it's ever been because the big bookmakers are mostly owned by American companies that are casino-based. They are the same people who own the big bookmakers in Australia. If we could convince the government that we are fighting this overseas drain with both hands tied behind our back right now, because of the funding system, we could hopefully get them to legislate in favour of an Australian-based system. I think it would be hugely beneficial to us and might also bring the on-course market back to life because there'd be bigger bets struck on the track.

That's one thing that is unique about British and Irish racing, is the bookmakers on the racecourse shouting the odds. It's part of the experience and is an exciting place to be. You go racing in France, the prize-money is better but there's four men and a dog sitting there watching the smaller meetings with no atmosphere at all. If we get the product, the prize-money and the competition right, then get people betting on it, then it all snowballs into a higher level altogether.

BS: You've spent time all over the world. Did you ever flirt with the idea of basing yourself somewhere other than Britain?

SW: I always think to myself that I should have stayed in Australia! I might retire out there one day. I was with Bart Cummings out there and I can remember going to Brisbane for the Carnival and basing one of our horses there with a small trainer who had a row of eight boxes behind his house in a suburb of Brisbane about a mile from the track. We used to walk the horses to the track every day and just work them like that. Well, that wouldn't be a bad retirement, having three or four horses in the back garden. He used to take them to the track and pay a work rider to ride them for him. That would appeal to me when I get too old to do it here! One day.

BS: Hopefully that won't come anytime soon as you've proved yourself to be one of the shrewdest operators in Britain down through the years. But if I was to ask you what provided you with your biggest kick in the game, what would you say?

SW: We had a horse when we first started training, Concer Un (GB) (Lord Bud {GB}), who was owned by a farmer who couldn't get 500 pounds for him at the sales. He was out of a mare who won once from as many starts, in a bumper, and William Haggas had trained it. Concer Un won a hatful of races for us, including a big handicap at the Ebor meeting at York, where he broke the track record and beat a horse who went on to finish second at the Breeders' Cup. To do that with a horse who couldn't get sold in the ring for 500 pounds provided us with a great buzz. We won 10 handicaps in the same season with Sendintank (GB) (Halling) and he won four handicaps in the same week in two separate weeks. That was pretty good as well.

BS: Finally, what does 2023 look like for you?

SW: We've got some nice horses and have picked up some new owners. George Gil is one of them, and he runs Opulence Thoroughbreds. He asked if I'd buy him some yearlings a couple of years ago and some of those look quite promising. We bought 14 in total in 2021. I trained seven of those and Roger Varian trained the rest. They didn't buy as many last year and they went to a few different trainers but the syndicate is growing and is modeled on Middleham Park. They've been fairly successful and, luckily, a few of the horses look quite promising so it's all quite positive.

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Brian Sheerin: To what degree do you think Baaeed (GB) helped to secure the future of Shadwell given he reached his pomp during a difficult time for the operation?

Angus Gold: I don't think it could be overstated how important Baaeed coming along–and the timing of it–was. It was extraordinary, really, as Sheikh Hamdan spent a lifetime in this business and had been trying to breed these top horses. He sadly died in March but then Baaeed came along in June and turned out to be a real champion. I was quoted on this before and I appreciate it might sound weird to some people but it was almost as if Baaeed had been sent to help his family to take on the mantle and show them what could happen when you get lucky and get a top horse in this sport. The timing of it was extraordinary and very relevant.

Obviously Sheikha Hissa is fascinated and very interested in the business but I'm not sure the rest of her family were as interested as she was from the outset. Racing and breeding was very much Sheikh Hamdan's thing but she was very keen to learn and get involved whereas I'm not so sure the rest of her brothers and sisters shared that enthusiasm. For them to be able to share a horse as good as Baaeed, when they are now all doing it together, I think it was extraordinarily important. To have a proper horse like Baaeed come along, it gave everyone a lift. Everyone was struggling when Sheikh Hamdan died as he was a remarkable man. To go back to it, the timing of Baaeed was hugely significant and you could never underestimate the significance of Baaeed to everyone, and particularly Sheikh Hamdan's family.

BS: You could say that the Aga Khan was placed with a similar dilemma when his father died so it's fantastic that Sheikha Hissa has continued the legacy.

AG: It would have been terribly sad if they decided not to continue the legacy. But, let's be realistic, it costs a lot of money to run an operation the size of Shadwell so it was understandable that they didn't want to continue with the numbers that they had before. As well as everything else, it is important that we generate a bit of income to help finance the whole show. With Minzaal (Ire) at Derrinstown, Baaeed at Nunnery, to go with Tasleet (GB), who has had an encouraging start, Eqtidaar (Ire), who we need to try and get more mares to and Mohaather (GB), who has had some nice foals, we can start to get a bit of income in which should offset some of the costs involved in running the operation. That will help them going forward.

BS: I saw William Haggas speaking the other day where he mentioned that he felt he ran Baaeed in the wrong race on Champions Day. What way do you look back on Baaeed's career? Is it tinged with regret, like William, or is it more closely related to thanking your lucky stars for coming across what was officially the best turf horse in the world last year.

AG: How could you be disappointed? Maybe William is looking for perfection. I wouldn't say we ran him in the wrong race at all. To me, it was the ground that was against him in the Champion S. Pure and simple. Other people might have different theories but it was very obvious early in the straight at Ascot that it wasn't going to happen. He was struggling and couldn't pick up on that ground.

It's very rare in my experience to find a horse who is as effective on heavy ground as he is on top of the ground. Obviously, Frankel (GB) won on very bad ground, which shows how remarkable he was. But, for me, I would never say it was the wrong race to have run him in. I would have loved to have run him in the Arc because it's the greatest race in the world. But that would have been completely the wrong race to run him in as it turned out with the way the ground came up. I think we ran him in the right race but the conditions went against us.

I always wanted to step this horse up in trip because that is what his pedigree suggested but we didn't get to do it because he kept winning top-class races over a mile. It was his class and his speed that made us keep him over a mile for as long as we did. It wasn't until York until we got the chance to step him up in trip and everyone saw how brilliant he was that day. I was disappointed for the horse. I would have loved had he gone to stud unbeaten. But how could anyone be disappointed with a horse who had done so much for us, the operation and the general public? He won 10 out of 10 before [his] first and only defeat. Not many do that.

BS: John Oxx took part in this Q&A at the beginning of the season where he explained how happy he was for Sea The Stars (Ire) to have a top-class miler. I know you are quoted as saying you were surprised by the speed Baaeed possessed given his pedigree. With all of that in mind, what do you think the overriding influence Baaeed will have at stud and what type of mares have been booked in to see him this year?

AG: His pedigree is more middle-distance but, as John said, Sea The Stars had the class to win the 2000 Guineas. Slow horses can't do that. He was an extraordinarily classy horse who was able to carry his speed over a-mile-and-a-half. I was purely surprised by how much speed Baaeed had for his pedigree but, then again, he looked a sharper horse. Physically, he's a strong, powerful horse who looked like he might be more of a shorter runner but then his full-brother [Hukum (Ire)] stays a-mile-and-a-half well. I'm not clever enough to tell you but I would imagine he will breed plenty of middle-distance horses but, equally, if he breeds them like himself, obviously he's going to put a bit of speed into them. I would imagine he will get a selection but I have learned over the years that you should never ignore pedigree and he's by a horse who had the class and speed to win a Guineas but also won a Derby and an Arc and is from a staying female line. I would expect him to get a lot of high-class middle-distance horses, like Frankel and Sea The Stars. If he is half as good as they are, I think we'll be doing alright.

BS: You touched on Minzaal. I was at Derrinstown for the Irish Thoroughbred Stallion Trail where nominations manager Joe Behan spoke of the massive buzz that he has created there and how he has proved something of a tonic for the place after the passing of Sheikh Hamdan.

AG: Firstly, we all miss Sheikh Hamdan, and I spoke to him most days in my life. We also missed his guidance and nobody knew what was going to happen after he died. Also, we had to sell a lot of horses in a short space of time when he died. Again, that is not a secret. For Derrinstown, Tamayuz (GB) had just retired so they needed fresh blood and it was lovely to get a horse like Minzaal, a very good sprinter, who will hopefully attract a lot of mares and breathe new life into the place.

BS: Was that the thinking behind sending Minzaal to Derrinstown? Was it that there was a void that needed to be filled or did you think that he was a stallion who would do particularly well in Ireland over anywhere else?

AG: I used to say to Sheikh Hamdan that our responsibility is to feed the studs. Whether that's England, Ireland or America, although that is a bit more polarised now, it's imperative that we try and blood new stallions but everyone in the business will tell you hard it is to do that. I've done this job for 36 years now and I've seen how few good horses manage to get retired to stud. It's vital when you have an operation the size of Derrinstown, you need to be getting stallions in there. It was really important and, as Joe said, it should give them all a lift and hopefully we can get a lot of decent mares into him.

BS: Speaking about the stallion roster, you must have been thrilled by how Mohaather's first foals were received last year?

AG: I don't like to beef horses up because I am old-fashioned and I prefer to let them do the talking but, in my experience, Mohaather was out of the ordinary as a racehorse. What he did that day in winning the Sussex, I haven't seen a turn of foot like that since Kingman (GB) won the Sussex himself. I think he was a well above average horse. I mean no disrespect, but I think if he was trained by a John Gosden or an Aidan O'Brien, I think more people would have realised how good he was. Just because Marcus Tregoning has a smaller string, I don't think people appreciated what a good horse he was.

He's an important horse for us but you've got to see that transferred and people liking the offspring, and right throughout the year, even before the sales, I kept getting good feedback on the foals he was producing. That was a lovely thing to hear but obviously you want to get to the sales and see them for yourself. I think we saw athletic, strong-bodied foals with a good walk and attitude by him. Physically, they looked the right type, and to see some of the people who bought them was important. It has been a very encouraging start for him.

BS: At what point were you given the green light to go and buy yearlings again last year?

AG: There wasn't a point. Sheikha Hissa said to me that she was hoping to come to the sales and, when she did come over, she expressed how she wanted to mainly concentrate on fillies because the stud is the most important thing and we needed to get some fresh blood in. We only bought one colt, who funnily enough is by Showcasing (GB) and is closely-related to Mohaather, but the rest were all fillies. We bought two well-bred fillies for a lot of money in Book 1 and then Sheikha Hissa came back and we bought some more in Book 2. It's going to be a long and slow process building everything back up. We were so lucky last year the way everything came together but obviously we are going to miss the superstar Baaeed this year. We know we are going to be quiet for a while but it was lovely to see Sheikha Hissa's commitment to building the studs back up and hopefully we'll get the odd stallion along the way.

BS: You bought a good mixture of yearlings. There were Showcasings and Siyounis (Fr) but you also bought some of the progeny by the unproven stallions as well. Was there a particular type of horse you targeted?

AG: There's never a set policy. Some people say that they don't want to touch horses by unproven sires but Too Darn Hot (GB) is a beautifully-bred horse and was obviously a high-class racehorse. Look, we don't know if they can run but you've got to go with your gut instinct and there's every reason why he'll make a good stallion. We also bought a couple of fillies by Land Force (Ire) who is a beautifully-bred horse who showed plenty of speed. He probably didn't retire to stud with the race record that they would have hoped for initially but he's a very good-looking horse and I loved the stock by him. I see no reason why he won't get runners.

You have to take a chance on some of these things and hope they come off. It's very interesting, I've been in Australia for the past few weeks and I've been keeping an eye on how the Too Darn Hots and Blue Point (Ire)s have been selling. They have sold really well. In a perfect world, you would go with proven stallions, but I have found that over the years we have done well with going for unproven horses. As long as they come within budget and are within reason, you've got to give it a go.

BS: You've been Shadwell's racing manager for 36 years. Who would you say have been your biggest influences?

AG: I can never think of a clever answer. I got very lucky in that I started off working in the racing business and then I went to London to work in the city in insurance for four years. I decided that it wasn't for me and I wanted to get back into horses. Michael Osborne, who ran the stud at Sandringham, was good enough to take me on and give me a chance. I spent two seasons there, so he was hugely important in my life and pushed me in the right direction.

You need to get lucky along the way and so many people helped me, including Hubie de Burgh, who interviewed me for the job with Sheikh Hamdan. I was 27 years old when I was interviewed for the job and had absolutely no experience at all. I have just kept my head down and they have let me learn from my mistakes. You just hope to learn from the many top-class people along the way. I've just been very lucky to have worked for such a patient man who was so passionate about the business.

BS: It takes a bit more than luck to hold down that position for such a long time. For such a big job, you've clearly had a lot of fun and still do have a lot of fun doing the job.

AG: Sheikh Hamdan was my boss and I did what I was told within reason. If I felt we were doing something wrong, I would tell him. We had a good working relationship and he was passionate. That was probably the best thing of all; the passion he had for racing and breeding. There aren't many people in his position who are willing to put in the time that he did. He used to watch the videos of the mares and foals that he would be sent from America and Ireland and he watched every single race and then go back and watch the replay when he was finished work.

He was the minister for finance, so he was working hard during the day, but he managed to fit in time to keep on top of the whole operation. He was incredibly hands on and every mating went through him. You learn that, the great thing about this game is, once you start to think you know something, something will come along and prove you wrong. You learn never to get too big-headed and to take what comes. You could buy the most beautifully-bred horse for an awful lot of money and it could get a respiratory infection and never be the same again. That's why, when you get a horse like Baaeed, he needs to be celebrated.

I enjoy working with people and was just very lucky to work for a man like Sheikh Hamdan for so many years. Every time I think I'm having a bad day, I think back to the time I was sitting on a tube train going to work in London with a lot of people who hated doing what they were doing for a living, I realise that I am lucky enough to wake up in the morning and go looking at horses on the gallops or do whatever it is that I am doing on a given day. It's been a big lesson in life for me to try and enjoy what you do in life. If you're lucky enough to have something that interests you in this game, you are well ahead of the rest of the field already. We're not curing cancer or doing anything particularly clever. In this case, all we are trying to do is buy and breed horses who run faster than others. I'm still fascinated by it and still love it. I'm very lucky to do something that I do love.

BS: When you speak of this game having an unrelenting ability to tame lions, there was a story you shared about Makfi on the TDN Aus Podcast that illustrated best how this game can humble you and how loyal Sheikh Hamdan was as well.

AG: His phrase was, 'we had no luck with this horse.' It was an emotional time for me. I felt very small and felt awful for the people at Derrinstown who bred the horse. I was told to get rid of a lot of 2-year-olds who weren't looking as though they were going to measure up and, at that stage, it didn't look like Makfi was. He came out and made fools of us by winning the 2000 Guineas the following year. It was a huge learning curve but to have Sheikh Hamdan in my corner, and for him to behave in the way that he did, he was unbelievably classy and said, 'we had no luck with this horse now forget about it.'It was the most humbling thing that happened in my professional life. I felt so bad for so many people. I offered to resign at the end of the year and he got very angry. He told me to forget about it and that was the class of the man that he was.

BS: Last year proved that life after Sheikh Hamdan is not all doom and gloom for the Shadwell operation. What can we expect to see from Shadwell this year in the sales ring?

AG: It will be built up slowly. We've trimmed it down, as the family wanted, and they are learning. I don't expect to be back buying to the level that we were. Sheikh Hamdan was extraordinary. He supported this business immensely. Even I was taken aback by the amount of horses he would buy and the support he showed people. People like him are one in a million. All I want to do is help Sheikha Hissa and her family for as long as they want me and to build things back up again. I don't mean numbers, I mean quality. I want to get it on a sound footing for them to take forward and enjoy long after I am gone.

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   In this week's Starfield Stud-sponsored Conversations Q&A, Appleby discusses his approach to sourcing talent, speaks out on the poor prize-money in Britain and how difficult it is to stay afloat as a trainer as well as expressing a desire to train quality 2-year-olds in the future.

Brian Sheerin: It's an exciting time for the yard with four runners in Dubai to look forward to in the upcoming weeks.

Mick Appleby: It is and we've got Raasel (GB) (Showcasing {GB}) running in the Dubai Dash on Friday. The favourite, Man Of Promise (Into Mischief), is a very good horse and he should be hard to beat. But hopefully Raasel can make us all proud and run a good race. If we finish in the first four we'd be delighted.

BS: There could be a lot of prize-money to be won with Raasel in Dubai over the coming weeks and months.

MA: There are only two five-furlong races on grass and he'll go for those. We might try him over six furlongs as well because, if he's going to get that trip anywhere, Meydan is where he will get it as it's such an easy track and he'd get quick ground there as well. If he was to run well over six furlongs, there is the possibility of him staying out there for World Cup Night. We'll try him over that trip first and see how it goes.

BS: Have you anything in mind for him on home turf this season or does his programme almost map itself out? In hindsight, it was an excellent run to be beaten a little over four lengths in the G1 Prix de l'Abbaye.

MA: It could be a big year for him. He ran very well at Longchamp and the draw did him on the day. He was just drawn on the wrong side and never really had any chance from there so I thought he ran really well that day. If he'd have been drawn on the other side, I think he'd have gone very close. He'll be campaigned very similar to last season and will be targeted at pretty much the same races.

BS: It's remarkable that all four horses you are running in Dubai cost less than 20,000gns apiece. What can you tell us about them?

MA: Edraak (Ire) (Elzaam {Aus}) will hopefully run on Jan. 20 in the 0-105 handicap. I am just waiting to hear back from the handicapper to let me know if he is dropping him in the weights or not. He's been off for six months because he did a suspensory in front when he was due to run at Newcastle. He should have been reassessed after being off for six months and, if he does get dropped, I think he'd have a very good chance. United Front (War Front) and Ayr Harbour (GB) (Harbour Watch {Ire}) will be campaigned on the dirt. They are good all-weather horses and Ayr Harbour in particular has shown some very good form on the old fibersand at Southwell so he could do quite well on the dirt out there. Same with United Front, he's been a good all-weather horse for us and I think he'll be fine on the dirt out there.

BS: What do you look for in a dirt horse?

MA: The American-bred horses seem to do a lot better on dirt and United Front obviously has an American pedigree. Basically, you need a big strong horse. I found that out when I went to South Korea with Annaf (Ire) (Muhaarar {GB}) last year. The dirt was just far too deep for him. I am going to try and go back out there this year and would try to buy horses specifically to go out there. I'd be looking at American-bred horses to go out there. The prize-money is absolutely amazing in South Korea.

BS: And what is it that you look for in horses at the sales in general as few trainers–if any–have a better reputation for rejuvenating tried horses.

MA: The Dixon brothers, Matt Taylor and Richard O'Brien are very good on form. They will pick horses out at the sales strictly on form. They will see things that I can't see. Likewise, I will see things that they can't see when it comes to physical issues with a horse and that's why the whole thing works so well.

BS: And what would you not forgive physically when buying at the horses-in-training sales?

MA: Knees are the big thing with me. It's very hard to get a horse right if they have bad knees. It's very hard to get them back if their knees are gone.

BS: Too many horses have improved for joining your yard for it to be put down to a simple change of scenery. What routine do they go into and how do you go about finding the improvement?

MA: It sounds simple but you have to find what the problems are and try and manage them. The other thing is, don't train them too hard. Actually, I think that is the key, not training them too hard. Just keep them sweet. You also have to give each horse the individual attention that it needs. Okay, it's got harder to do that with the more horses that we have got but the most I'd ever train at one time is 80. That's the number where you can manage it all and keep an eye on everything that's going on with each horse.

BS: You must have a great team to be even able to apply such individual care to 80 horses. That must be a huge advantage as a lot of yards are struggling to find staff right now.

MA: A lot of the staff that we have here have been with us for a long time. But it is a big problem, getting staff, and we could possibly do with a couple more riders. Getting groundstaff is not as hard. Anyone can muck a stable out. But riding a horse is a completely different skill and we find it hard to get the good riders. When you have the likes of Godolphin offering mega money to work riders, you just can't compete with that.

BS: And how have you found competing in the sales ring throughout the past year? Even for those middle to lower tier handicappers, the prices have sky-rocketed.

MA: It's been a lot tougher buying those bottom-end horses the past few years. We are not prepared to pay over the odds. We might go a little bit more than what we think a horse is worth if we really want it but we are not prepared to pay three or four times the true value. Why would you? Some of these horses are not worth what people are prepared to pay for them. The days are gone when I could go out and buy Art Scholar (Ire) (Pyrus) and Lockantanks (GB) (Compton Place {GB}) for five hundred quid apiece. You can't do that now. We're a little bit down on numbers as a result but that's probably not a bad thing because of the staff situation. We've 80 horses in and we're happy with that.

BS: The quality of the yard seems to be growing every year. You sent out 107 winners last year and recorded a record haul of £1,438,497 in prize-money in Britain.

MA: We'd 109 winners the year before but only won about £1.2million in prize-money so the quality is growing. But prize-money is a big issue in British racing. Owners are leaving the sport because it's just not viable. It's meant to be a hobby for owners but it's becoming a very expensive one. There's no way that you should be winning a race and it's not covering your costs for the month. If you win a Class 5 or 6 race in Britain, you will be very lucky to cover your costs for the month. It shouldn't be that way.

BS: Take Win Win Power (Ire) (Exceed And Excel {Aus} as an example the other day. He won first time up for you at Southwell but won just £3,402.

MA: I bought him for £2,000 at the Ascot Sale in November, so he has paid for himself, but that's ridiculous prize-money. There's no way you should be running for less than £10,000 in this day and age. There's so many owners leaving racing now because it doesn't make economic sense.

BS: Is there anything you can do as a trainer to incentivise owners having a horse in training with you?

MA: Not really. We run it to a tight budget as it is. We are only £55 per day and are a lot cheaper than the majority of other trainers in the country. We can't slice it any other way. We just about break even and we're not making money out of it. Put it this way, if I was looking at coming into training now, I wouldn't do it. It's a good lifestyle but, is it a viable business? No, it isn't. Unless you have a bottomless pit of money, it's not viable. Obviously I've been doing it long enough to have built everything up but, if I was coming into it now, there's no way I'd be able to get where I have. Somebody needs to stand up and do something about the prize-money situation, otherwise there will be a lot more people leaving racing in this country.

BS: How frustrating is it when you rattle off a series of wins with a horse, feel you've done a great job with it but still haven't cleared what it costs to train the animal for a year?

MA: There's horses we've won five or six races with and they might only have won 20 grand. It's ludicrous. Owners would rightly look at that and think, 'why bother?' Being in horses now, you've got to do it for the love of it.

BS: Could you see things changing even five or 10 years down the line?

MA: Unless the BHA, the ROA and the NTF get their heads together and do something to sort this mess out, well then it's never going to change. They just bury their heads in the sand and don't do anything about it. The worst thing that ever happened is the Tote being sold off. The bookmakers need to be putting more money back into the sport. Look at the profits Bet 365 made last year. How much of that went back into racing?

BS: On that note, I interviewed Charles Byrnes a few years ago after he recorded a slew of bumper gambles and he was pretty forthright in saying that the money he won was necessary to keep the business in lights. When the money comes for one trained by Mick Appleby it is always very well-respected. Do you bet yourself?

MA: Not really. I don't really gamble because I'm a bad loser. It's not very often I'd have a bet on one of my own horses. If I'm having a bet, it's more likely to be on football. We've owners who like betting. We get our horses fit and well. A lot of the time, they will win first time out. Everyone seems to have cottoned on to that now and you'd see horses of ours who may not even necessarily be that well fancied and they'd be going off as odds-on favourites in races. People think we're going to just improve every single horse and it's going to be winning first time out for us. There's been times when horses of ours have gone off odds-on and we'd be thinking, 'bloody hell, who'd back that.' Then when it does get beat, all you get is abuse from people online.

BS: I know you've had some major successes on the grass but do you feel slightly pigeonholed as an all-weather trainer or as a trainer who just does well with other people's castoffs? Is there part of you that would like to start taking on more yearlings with a view to training 2-year-olds?

MA: Obviously we have been pigeonholed. People think we can just train handicappers, basically. Nobody associates us for having nice yearlings or 2-year-olds but that's only because we've never been sent any. There's no other reason whatsoever. We've had 2-year-old winners–I think we'd half a dozen 2-year-old runners last year and one winner. You can't run them if you don't have them. Aquarius (Ire) (Charm Spirit {Ire}) won first time out at Newmarket a couple of seasons ago, beating a Godolphin hotpot, but then there are still some people who think we can't train 2-year-olds. I can only train what I have. I'd love an owner to come along and say, here's two million quid, go and buy some yearlings. Then we'd be able to show people we can train 2-year-olds.

BS: You do extremely well with what you train and I know that Martin Dixon plays an integral role in the operation as a race planner. How much of an advantage has that been?

MA: Martin started off doing my entries a couple of years ago as I'd got a lot more horses and I was going racing a lot more so I was finding it hard to do everything. It's working very well.

BS: And how will you approach having runners in Dubai over the coming weeks? Will you go over a few times?

MA: We have two lads out there and one of them has been there before so he knows the ropes. They send us What'sApp videos every day and they have all settled in great. I am going out next Wednesday to see Ayr Harbour and United Front running on the Friday. I'll stay out there for two or three days and will continue to come back and forward.

BS: Another thing that is close to your heart is the Racing And Pride campaign that promotes racing as being everybody's sport and the LGBTQ+ community. You put yourself out there for that campaign. Do you think it was a good thing or is there much more to be done?

MA: There's always more that can be done but it was definitely a step forward. I came out as gay 15 or 16 years ago. You're always going to get certain people who will look down their nose at you and think you're a bloody alien or something but that's up to them. I just get on with my life and live it as I want to live it.

BS: But obviously you're in the public domain so I imagine it helped quite a few people to see a prominent trainer come out as gay.

MA: Quite a few people came up to me at the races actually. A lot of people thanked me for speaking out so I think it probably helped a lot of people. If it helped one person, that's all that matters.

The post ‘We Just About Break Even: Prize-Money Is Ludicrous In Britain’ appeared first on TDN | Thoroughbred Daily News | Horse Racing News, Results and Video | Thoroughbred Breeding and Auctions.

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Brian Sheerin: This year will be remembered for the remarkably strong trade at the sales. Your family's Conna Stud was a beneficiary of the excellent trade when selling a Churchill (Ire) filly for €230,000 at the Orby Sale in September. How did the year go as a whole?

Jane Mangan: The premier sales this year were incredible and we were blessed to have a lovely Churchill filly at this year's Orby Sale. We only have two Flat mares so we realise how lucky we are to even have a yearling good enough to get into that sale. She was bought by Amanda Skiffington for Fiona Carmichael and I believe she will join Fabrice Chappet. Everyone here had a soft spot for 'Rosie,' as she was known, so I hope she is lucky for her new connections. At home, our bread and butter has always been the National Hunt. My head might be in the Flat but my heart will always belong to the National Hunt.

Obviously your Dad Jimmy is a well-respected trainer and your mother Mary plays an integral role in things. How does the breeding side of the operation work?

The best decision Jimmy made in life was to marry Mary! They never stop and have instilled a mindset into all of us that, 'if you're not working-you're wasting.' Breeding is a lifestyle rather than a job and my two brothers Bryan and Patrick are very much involved at home too. Bryan foals all the mares with Dad, Mam takes over when the foals are born and the mating conversations are usually debated over supper. We try to keep our broodmare band to 20 or less and are blessed to be surrounded by some of the best stud farms in Europe down here in Cork.

Are there any stallions who in your opinion are flying under the radar on the Flat or over jumps?

Too many to list! Like most, we breed to pay bills. But if breeders were aiming to win on the track rather than in the ring then I'm sure the return of mares would take a very different shape. Look at it this way, there are 28 races at Cheltenham of which there are usually around 26 different successful stallions. Current sales results don't reflect this reality but breeders know what sells, thus are producing horses to satisfy that thirst.

The Flat game is also guilty when it comes to prioritising the sharp right-handed sales ring rather than that of the Curragh or Longchamp. To think that there are 35 Group 1 races run at ten to twelve furlongs in Europe compared to 13 races at five to six furlongs and we still mass produce the latter. I'm not naïve. I know why but I'm pretty certain that we all recognise this as wrong. Large owner-breeders aside, is it any wonder the Japanese are regularly putting us in our place in these big middle-distance races? 

I see both sides of the coin. We use very reasonably priced sons of Galileo (Ire), Sea The Stars (Ire), Adlerflug (Ger) etc for our national hunt mares who should really be covering Flat books. Silver linings I suppose.

Monty's Pass (Ire) sadly passed away recently at the grand old age of 29. He gave your family the best day on a racecourse when winning the Grand National in 2003. What are your memories of that historic triumph and what did he mean to the Mangan family?

Monty was our winning lotto ticket who lived here for over 25 years. Read out at the rostrum as 'unsuitable for racing'  as an unbroken store due to a heart murmur, he made all the hard graft worthwhile not just for my parents but for generations of our family who have worked in the industry. I was eight at the time and blissfully unaware, cocooned at home with my grandparents. I just hope his story can give hope that you don't need to spend huge money or have 250 horses in training to unearth the diamond in the rough. We're traders but the fact that no vet would ever pass him meant that he was never sold out of the yard. Many consider that luck. I prefer to think of it as fate.

The National Hunt game is scarcely recognisable now compared to when Monty's Pass won the Grand National. A lot has changed in those 20 years.

The national hunt game in Ireland has become extremely centralised around two or three superpower yards. That's not their fault but it's not healthy either. Predictable is boring and punters' prices are often slim pickings! There are countless good trainers in this country who are forced to sell and it will take them to find their own investors who are willing to stay loyal for them to retain talent and therefore showcase their ability. Gordon Elliott, Gavin Cromwell, John McConnell have all made themselves from a blank canvas. It can be done.

You burst onto the scene as an amateur and enjoyed notable success but made an early decision to carve out a career in racing but outside of the saddle. Why was that?

I never intended to earn a living as a jockey and no amount of winners would change that mindset. I enjoyed a decent level of success as an amateur while in school and in college but for me, it was the part-time job that every student needs. Some of my friends worked in shops and restaurants, whereas I was racing. Honestly, I wasn't willing to break bones for the cause. That hunger was never there but I enjoyed it immensely, had some special days, made important contacts and learned more on the track than I did in lecture halls!

You're clearly quite passionate about your pedigrees.

In our house, the Tattersalls November Foal Catalogue was our bible. That was and still is our harvest so I would read that cover to cover as a child when I probably should have been looking at Dahl or Dickens. When I was 14 I got my first job away from home with David Wachman, the year Again (Ire) (Danehill Dancer {Ire}) won the Irish 1,000 Guineas. I distinctly recall scanning the door cards which had the horse's sire and dam details of which I didn't recognise most names. That is where competitiveness kicks in. I hated not knowing. Not understanding. So we quickly expanded our catalogue collection! That was my first taste of Flat breeding and from there I spent a few summers in Ballydoyle by which time I had enough knowledge to appreciate how incredible it was to be there. I can vividly remember my first lot on the board being a Kingmambo filly out of Alexandrova (Ire). She wasn't a star but I didn't care. If there had been a seed planted, working with those horses made it blossom.

Tell us more about your time working in Ballydoyle. What was it like working for Aidan O'Brien and what were the main things you observed there?

It's been over ten years since I worked my first summer in Ballydoyle and the change from then to now is immense. Most would have the mindset to never change something so successful but maybe that's the key? Evolve with the aim to improve or remain stationary until the competition eventually passes you by. It's a very empowering environment in which to work. Every horse is treated equally regardless of ability, thus every rider and groom feels like they are part of something important-that what they do makes a difference to the end result. Everyone's work must matter. That environment is created from the top down and I venture to think that's what separates the best from the rest. To conquer the peaks and stay at the top for so long, whether it's Aidan O'Brien, John Gosden, Willie Mullins or even Sir Alex Ferguson, they are leaders who can optimise the ability of each member of their team and can adapt to all environments. They know complacency is the enemy of progress. I doubt they dwell on success for too long. Everything is moving forward.

One of your first roles after college was working with Primus. How long did you spend there and what did you enjoy about working there?

One of the best pieces of advice I have ever received is, 'surround yourself with the best people. People who challenge you and make you better. They will carry you forward.' With that in mind and considering I wanted to work and learn more about international breeding, where better to go than Fethard? I worked with incredibly knowledgeable people and made some life-long friends during my five years there.

And how did broadcasting come about?

Broadcasting was never in my mind, it just seemed so far beyond me. I grew up watching Tracy Piggott and Clare Balding but the thought would never enter my mind that their career path was a possibility for a girl from Conna. Luckily, someone in RTE disagreed and I think Tracy might have helped behind the scenes too. She had interviewed me at the races on a few occasions and let's just say, I don't think it did any harm! You need to be ready when the door opens and considering I knew my riding days were numbered, my mind was open to all avenues.

Your broadcasting career has gone from strength to strength and you now balance RTE Racing, Racing TV, The Nick Luck Podcast and more. Is that what you set out to work in or has it just happened organically?

The latter. Like I said, five years ago I wouldn't never have ever considered these opportunities possible. Broadcasting on a sport you have lived and breathed is a privilege and frankly, it's our responsibility to entertain and inform. We are the buffer between the public and the product. We're the sales pitch. Especially on the national broadcaster (RTE), every day is an opportunity to grow interest levels and develop the next generation of fans.

Who has been the biggest influence on your broadcasting career and why? Who has offered you the most help and feedback?

My parents have been at the core of every decision, every consideration and all those debates. Dad was my biggest fan and toughest critic when I rode, fitness was everything and every race was replayed at home. He was stunned when I decided to stop. Stunned. Whereas Mam has always embraced change and could see a bigger picture. I like to think they get a kick out of watching me now, it's a different kind of post racing critique these days but constructive all the same.

Away from broadcasting, you have been busy working with The Thoroughbred Corporation, which is a revival of those famous colours. That must be exciting?

For sure. As a child growing up watching racing, my earliest memories are in graphics and colours. Michael Tabor's blue and orange silks are forever associated with Johannesburg, Hurricane Run (Ire) and Montjeu (Ire). The Aga Khan's green and red always evoke memories of Dalakhani (Ire) and Sinndar (Ire). And those iconic white and green stripes are instantly recognisable too. I recall watching Johar's battle with High Chaparral (Ire) in the 2003 Breeders' Cup, Royal Anthem's dismissal of Greek Dance (Ire) in the Juddmonte International and Oath (Ire) storming down the outside of Daliapour (Ire) at Epsom. Those silks have a rich history. After almost 20 years, they returned to the track in May and I feel very lucky to be working with the team who I was in awe of as a child. It's very much a measured approach with a small but growing team of horses. You can't help but feel excited.

And on the track, what horses are you most looking forward to seeing in 2023?

I'm excited to see how Vadeni (Fr) is campaigned this season. The best of his generation last season, his Arc run was brilliant for a horse who showed so much pace in the Eclipse and Prix du Jockey Club. Wouldn't it be great to see him in a King George? He's the real deal.

As for the classic generation, the return of Chaldean (GB), Little Big Bear (Ire) and Tahiyra (Ire) would get the juices flowing, wouldn't they? 

The post Jane Mangan: ‘Broadcasting Was Never On My Mind – It Seemed Beyond Me’ appeared first on TDN | Thoroughbred Daily News | Horse Racing News, Results and Video | Thoroughbred Breeding and Auctions.

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   Son of the legendary Martin Molony, widely regarded as the best dual-purpose jockey of all time, Peter is one of the most respected judges in the game.

   He opened the gates of Rathmore Stud to TDN Europe this week and revealed why Leopardstown is D-Day for dual Champion Hurdle winner Honeysuckle and explained that retirement would be the preferred option to running in the Mares' Hurdle at Cheltenham for Henry de Bromhead's star.

   Molony also shares that, for when Honeysuckle is retired to the paddocks, she will visit Walk In The Park (Ire). He also discussed in great detail his role at Goffs, concerns for the industry, Oisin Murphy's eagerly-anticipated return and much more in this week's Starfield Stud-sponsored Q&A.

Brian Sheerin: With your Rathmore Stud hat on, how do you reflect on 2022?

Peter Molony: It was a great year for us. The first big sale was the Land Rover and our horses sold really well there. We'd a good Milan (GB) filly of our own who sold well. We gave 50 grand for her as a foal and we got 150 grand for her at the Land Rover, so that was lovely. The yearlings sold well as well and, considering what's happening in the world, the market held up really well–especially for the quality horses. We were lucky enough to breed a nice winner last year, Wren's Breath (Ire) (Elzaam {Aus}), who Henry [de Bromhead] trained for us. We'd a half-sister to her at the Orby by Zoustar (Aus) and she made 300 grand, which was phenomenal. She is a beautiful filly. Our pinhooks went quite well this year so we got stuck in again in November. But, as I said, the market was quite strong so it was hard to buy the ones you wanted.

BS: Any air of trepidation about getting stuck in again? This was a phenomenal year but some people are worried that we might feel a bite in 2023.

PM: We've had a few very good years with the pinhooking on the Flat. We decided that we'd step off the beaten track a little bit because, when we went in for the big, fancy, obvious foals, we had to give too much for them and we just haven't been lucky with them recently. We bought later foals, a few end of April and even May foals, which pinhookers seem to step away from, but they've done very well for us so we did the same again. We didn't just plough on regardless. We thought about what we were going to do and went for that type of foal again. Hopefully it will work out. On the National Hunt foals, we decided to concentrate a little bit more on quality. John Bleahan is a great friend of mine and we were chatting away recently about what the market is going to look like in the next couple of years and his summarisation was good. He said, 'it's either this or sheep,' in that we don't know anything different, so we may as well keep going at what we know best.

BS: The National Hunt market is going through a strange period at the moment. You need to be by Walk In The Park, Blue Bresil (Fr) or one of the good French sires to get well paid. When you were concentrating on the top end, what stallions were you honing in on?

PM: It's very tight. There are only a small number of top-end stallions that people seem to want. We bought a couple of Walk In The Parks (Ire), we could only get our hands on one Blue Bresil (Fr), we got a No Risk At All (Fr) and took a chance on a couple of foals by Order Of St George (Ire)–I really like them, they're really good-looking horses and they seem to have lovely temperaments. But it's a risky time for him as he has a couple of crops ahead and, if they don't work out, it's not ideal. I bought a Soldier Of Fortune (Ire) but didn't give huge money for it and we bought a Maxios (GB) and a Vadamos (Fr), so we have a bit of a spread.

BS: I suppose the best horse you ever bought was outside the box in that she was by Sulamani (Ire).

PM: The difference with her was that she was bought to race. All of those foals are bought to be sold on. There's a big difference between buying a racehorse and a sales horse which shouldn't make sense but it does. You have to buy what the market is going to want in the future.

BS: And speaking about Honeysuckle (GB), there has been a lot said and written since she lost her unbeaten record but what's your own feeling on the whole thing.

PM: All the ratings people seem to believe it was her best ever run in the Hatton's Grace and normally her first run of the season is always her worst run. I suppose she's getting older and it's going to take a little more to get her ready first time out so, taking everything into account, it was one of her highest-rated runs for her first start of the season so we'd have to be happy. If we weren't protecting an unbeaten run, I think we'd have left Fairyhouse cock-a-hoop with ourselves. We haven't lost faith in her. Leopardstown here we come.

BS: Everyone wants that match between Honeysuckle and Constitution Hill (GB) in the Champion Hurdle. Is that still the dream or has the Mares' Hurdle become a more appealing target than it was previously?

PM: First of all, I think the Mares' Hurdle is getting a bit of a slagging off, which I think is totally unfair. If we didn't have the mares' programme that has been built up over the past 20 years, Honeysuckle probably wouldn't be running right now–she'd be out in a field with a foal at foot somewhere. The amount of top-class mares who have come through the system in the past 10 to 15 years, most of those, if not all of them, would never have hit the track if it wasn't for the mares' programme. I think people are missing the point, to be honest, and I think the mares' programme is hugely important. We got a lot of slagging when we ran Honeysuckle in the Mares' Hurdle first time round but, as it happened, we probably ended up running in the tougher race by taking on Benie Des Dieux (Fr) (Great Pretender {Ire}). People were saying we were ducking the challenge of the Champion Hurdle but we just felt she wasn't quite ready to run over two miles at championship pace and that the two-and-a-half-mile option was better at that stage in her career. Her jumping was a bit slow at that time–she was big and novicey when winning her first Irish Champion Hurdle the time before so we did what was best for her. That will be the same this year.

We will always do what's best for Honeysuckle. That's the number one thing. I suppose I will give you a bit of a scoop here, if we don't think that she is up to running to her best, she probably won't run full stop–she'll be retired. Kenny said that last year, that we were going to give her one more season but, if we don't feel she is up to doing herself justice, she is not going to be risked. She is too important to us. We are not going to risk her. We have to think that she will be up to running to her full ability if she runs again.

BS: Is Leopardstown D-Day in that, if she doesn't run right up to her best, she could be retired?

PM: That is a distinct possibility, yes. It's not about ducking competition. There are three scenarios. Number one is that she runs in the Champion Hurdle, number two is that she is retired and number three is that she goes for the Mares' Hurdle. The least likely scenario is that she would run in the Mares' Hurdle. That's where we are at with her. It's all about Honeysuckle. We are all dreaming and we really want to take on Constitution Hill. Nicky Henderson is a great friend and has been a wonderful supporter of mine. We've been slagging each other all summer and nothing would give me more pleasure than going out and beating Constitution Hill as I think he is a phenomenal horse. That's what we really want to do. But let's see what the next few weeks bring. Both horses have to get there in one piece.

BS: Kenny seems to be a great character. From saying he was extremely confident on Racing TV the evening before Honeysuckle won her first Champion Hurdle to being magnanimous in defeat after the Hatton's Grace, he is quite refreshing.

PM: He is genuinely a lovely guy and very down to earth. After Honeysuckle won the Champion Hurdle last season, he led her in with his shirt hanging out and the Racing Post rolled under his arm. I think some people had thought that some interloper had run into the winner's enclosure to lead Honeysuckle back in. But that's him–no airs or graces about him. I am very lucky to have met him and to be working for him.

BS: How did that relationship come about?

PM: The first time I met Kenny was at this kitchen table 12 or 14 years ago. He rang David Redvers around the same time Sheikh Fahad got involved. David told him that he was concentrating on the Flat but recommended that he come and visit us here at Rathmore Stud. He told me about his dream to breed top-class National Hunt horses and I told him he was nuts. I advised him to buy foals so at least he'd know what he was getting and therefore he could concentrate on the thing a little bit. The first thing we did was buy two National Hunt foals at the Tattersalls February Sale to pinhook together. We bought a Kalanisi (Ire) and a Flemensfirth.

At the time, we had been buying National Hunt foals to pinhook as yearlings but the National Hunt yearling market fell flat on its face. This was about the time when that happened. They cost 17 grand each and, when we brought them back to the November Sale, we couldn't get what we paid for either of them. Kenny must have been thinking, 'oh my God, what idiot am I after getting involved with?' I told him that we had two lovely horses on our hands but the National Hunt yearling market had gone. We kept them on as 3-year-olds and sold the Kalanisi privately. He paid for himself and the Flemensfirth and went on to be named Champagne Express (GB) for Nicky Henderson. He was a good horse. We brought the Flemensfirth to the Land Rover Sale, I think it was the first year I was working as an agent for Goffs, and he made 130 grand. We sold him again to Nicky Henderson and David Minton, funnily enough, and he turned out to be O O Seven (Ire). From thinking I was an eejit, Kenny must have suddenly thought that I was a genius, but maybe the truth was somewhere in the middle.

For the next few years after that, I was only doing bits and pieces for Kenny and I bought him a mare called Asturienne (GB) (Sleeping Car {Fr}) off Alan King. She was his first broodmare and ended up breeding his first black-type horse, Carrie Des Champs (Ire) (Robin Des Champs {Fr}), and she's also bred Doddiethegreat {Ire}) (Fame And Glory {GB}). Typical of Kenny, he named that horse after Doddie Weir and all of his prize money will go towards the Doddie Weir foundation for motor neurone disease.

It was five years ago when I went up to Kenny's box at Cheltenham. I'd noticed he'd started to spend a few quid through different agents, which was all fine, but he wasn't having any success. He'd given a lot of money for a few horses with no results. There was another bloodstock agent there that day chatting him up. He's actually a friend of mine and I've told him this story since and he laughs about it. But I kind of saw red a bit that day. I just felt that the whole thing was disorganised and that Kenny was going to get cheesed off with the whole thing because he'd things coming at him from every direction. It was just too disorganised.

When that bloodstock agent left the box, I pulled Kenny aside and told him that he needed to get somebody to pull it all together and organise it for him. I can tell you, I was not looking for the job myself because I had Rathmore, Qatar and Goffs to concentrate on. He asked me to do it and, after saying no a good few times, I rang my wife Sarah to see if she thought we could take it on or not, and we decided to give it a go. The following day, I was walking through the Cheltenham enclosure and met Henry and Heather de Bromhead. I invited them up to meet Kenny and they got on like a house on fire. We bought Sinoria (Ire) (Oscar {Ire}) at the Cheltenham sale that week and then we bought Honeysuckle the following month at the Goffs Punchestown Sale.

BS: It has snowballed, hasn't it?

PM: Yes, and the idea is to concentrate on well-bred National Hunt mares, which is why I had no interest in Honeysuckle initially because I didn't think her pedigree was good enough. The idea is that they go back to Kenny's stud as broodmares. With those mares, you might have to give a lot of money for them after they win their point-to-point but, if they stand on a nail in the morning, they still have a residual value whereas the geldings don't. There's a certain safety net.

BS: Halka Du Tabert (Fr) (Balko {Fr}) was impressive at Naas on Tuesday and looks another smart recruit for Kenny. What other running plans are there for over Christmas?

PM: She was very good and she'll go to Fairyhouse for the Solerina Mares Novice Hurdle next. We've a nice juvenile hurdler, Gala Marceau (Fr) (Galiway {GB}), who won a listed juvenile hurdle for fillies impressively at Auteuil. She's smart. Gauloise (Fr) (Samum {Ger}) is also back from injury and will hopefully run over the Christmas as well.

BS: And you must be sick of re-telling the story of how you came to buy Honeysuckle at this stage.

PM: Our scouts told us about how impressive she was in winning her point-to-point and, I'll have to be honest, I didn't even look at her race. I took one look at her pedigree and didn't think it was good enough. As a Goffs agent, I wanted to show support to the sale so I went down to look at her and she was a big, raw and narrow thing–she was like two boards slapped together. I thought, 'if she could win as impressively as they are all telling me that she won, she must be good.' I went and watched the race and she was unbelievable. I rang Henry and Kenny and told them that maybe we should reconsider her.

BS: Being by Sulamani she could go to any stallion, couldn't she? Have you thought that far ahead or do you want to get her racing career over and done with first?

PM: I have already talked to a stallion master. All you need to do is look at the National Hunt sales to figure out who she will be going to see. She's booked in to Walk In The Park, all going well. That's the plan.

BS: And what about Henry's role in the whole thing? I know that you are very close with him.

PM: I can remember the first time I met Henry and it's probably not far off 40 years ago when we were in school. I was in fifth year and I think he was in first year. I can remember that he had a pudding bowl haircut! I remember him because he was a de Bromhead and we all knew his father Harry as being a successful trainer. Henry was a cheeky little pup! We've always been friendly and, I've said before, great horses bring people together and between Honeysuckle, Sinoria, Minella Melody (Ire) (Flemensfirth), we've had huge success with the de Bromheads and have become closer and closer with them and the kids down through the years. They are such a lovely family. They are phenomenally strong people. I am full of admiration for them.

BS: What will the next few months entail with a view towards the Land Rover? A lot of work has gone into that sale in the last number of years and it's amazing how much the quality has risen as a result.

PM: There is a great team at Goffs and everyone is really enthusiastic. The first thing we did was target the horses. The year we sold O O Seven, we also had Tombstone (Ire) (Robin Des Champs {Fr}) in our draft and a lot of people at the time were asking me why I didn't have them in the Derby Sale. My attitude was, Eddie O'Leary, David Minton and Nicky Henderson were all at Goffs, so why would I need to go anywhere else. John Bleahan and I had a horse four or five years prior to that, Virginia Preuil (Fr) (Saint Preuil {Fr}), and we got €120,000 for him at the Land Rover. I think he was the first ever National Hunt store to make €100,000 or more at Goffs. So I had confidence that, if you had the right horse at Goffs, you were going to get well-paid for it. It took seven or eight years but slowly the confidence in the sale began to grow and people started to send better horses. The marketing team does a great job at getting the trainers and the agents in and the momentum has really grown.

BS: And obviously a huge amount of work went on behind the scenes to attract the American buyers to Goffs for the Orby and it told with the record-breaking trade. Could you see that sale developing further?

PM: A couple of years have passed since the Orby debacle at Doncaster and it was a debacle, it was an absolute disaster and nobody is denying that, so there was a lot of soul searching after it. A lot of Irish vendors were really good to us the following year and brought some lovely horses to the Orby to help revitalise it and it worked. It worked really well. This year was a step up again. The one thing people will say to you, and they said it when we were trying to build the Land Rover, is that traditionally, all the best horses have been sold at the Derby Sale or that, throughout history, all the best yearlings have been sold at Newmarket. My question is why? If the horses are in the Orby well then the buyers will come. It's an awful shame that millions of euros worth of yearlings pass the door at Goffs on their way up to the ferry every year. I believe there's no need for that. Since I have joined Goffs, I've sold everything there–at the Orby, Sportsman's and the Land Rover.

BS: The Goffs Million was reintroduced this year and I think people recognised that. Is there anything else in the pipeline or do you think they are gimmicks?

PM: I think gimmick would be an unfair word and those incentives are needed. Thinking outside the box is needed. Henry Beeby is such an enthusiast and such a hard worker. He's passionate about the whole game and is desperate to get the Orby where it should be. I've no doubt that there's going to be a lot thrown at the sale over the next five years.

BS: If you were to think big, look at how well a race like The Everest has been received in Australia. I'm not saying something like that would work here but I do think there's a bit of a disconnect between racing and bloodstock and the more we can fill in those blanks, it has to have a huge upside for the industry.

PM: Absolutely. When you mention Australia, I think that is where we need to look towards. I know they have a different funding model but one man I hugely admire, and what he did for Magic Millions and how they caught up on Inglis, is Gerry Harvey. He's done something that should be admired hugely and maybe even mimicked.

BS: And how do you view the future of Irish racing?

PM: With the way society is going and with the demonisation of gambling from certain sections, I think we need to be looking at different ways of funding the industry. I'm not sure if I am bright enough to figure it out but I think racecourses–with notable exceptions–are relying a little too much on media rights and not working hard enough on getting people through the turnstiles. There were suggestions that there might be racing behind closed doors in Britain not too long ago because it would be easier on the racecourse in question not to employ staff etc for punters on the track. I asked the question recently about what the GAA's main revenue stream was. It's people through the turnstiles. That's something we need to work on big time. If you look at Australia and the crowds that go racing and the atmosphere they can generate on course, I think it's something we need to try and emulate. The racetracks really need to work on this. I've a very good friend who doesn't have anything to do with racing and he asked me recently if our industry was totally reliant on gambling. When I told him it was, he made an interesting face, and that's the way society is going so we need to be aware of that. We really need to be actively thinking about different ways of funding the industry.

BS: And speaking about international jurisdictions, Sheikh Fahad has had heightened success in America this year.

PM: Fergus Galvin and Adrian Regan in Hunter Valley Farm have done a wonderful job. Sheikh Fahad has done a good bit of trading there recently as well. The likes of Ocean Road (Ire) (Australia {GB}), who was a high-class filly in England but goes over there and wins a Grade I. The prize-money over there is phenomenal and, when you win your Grade I over there, you can see what they are worth. She made $1.6 million at the sales. It's hard to argue with that model.

BS: And closer to home, can you tell me a bit more about Rathmore Stud? There is great history to this place.

PM: Apparently the first mention of us here is back in 1682–so we've been here a while! My grandfather William trained a couple himself. He'd a good horse Hill Of Camas and another called Timber Wolf, who I think won a Galway Plate. My grandmother owned Knight's Crest who my father rode to win the Irish Grand National when he was just 16 years' old. That was his first major win as a jockey. So there was Martin, my father, and his brother Tim, who won four Champion Hurdles in a row and I'm pretty certain he's the only person to have done that. He was crowned champion jockey five times in England and was actually left this place but decided to move to England and sold it to my father.

BS: Martin was arguably the greatest dual-purpose jockey of all time.

PM: He had already retired 13 or 14 years by the time I was born. He was only 26 when he retired and we couldn't really appreciate all that he achieved in the saddle but we certainly saw it here at home. He was gifted and was still riding 2-year-olds for me here when he was 75. People used to say to me that I was nuts to put him up but the answer was that he was much less likely to get a fall than anyone else. I think he was a horse whisperer. What he could do was phenomenal. The likes of Paul Carberry and Ruby Walsh, they have something, it's a gift. Horses just relax for them. You'd put my father up, aged 75, on a 2-year-old who'd been bucking and kicking and, as soon as he'd sit up on him, the horse would just relax. It was phenomenal to watch. He used to drive us mad as kids. He'd send us out to get a horse from the field and we'd be running around for an hour trying to catch it. He'd come out and, next thing, the horse would walk over to him. It used to drive us bonkers! He wasn't very generous with his talent–he didn't pass it on!

BS: I suppose we're seeing something similar with Rachael Blackmore in that horses seem to just run for her.

PM: When Rachael rode Honeysuckle to win the Grade 1 novice hurdle at Fairyhouse, Richard Pugh came up to me and told me that, in his reckoning, she was the first lightweight jockey to be as successful over jumps as my father was. Horses are so balanced under her and she's got a phenomenal tactical brain. I can't really compare her to my father because I never saw him ride in a race.

BS: Speaking of jockeys, a certain Oisin Murphy is back next year.

PM: Listen, he's a brilliant rider. He's stayed here a few times this year and we've gone around looking at breeze-up horses together and things like that. Please God he can keep on the straight and narrow and realise his full potential because he's a wonderful rider. He's seriously gifted.

BS: That famous Kieran Fallon anecdote from an interview with David Walsh comes to mind. He described Pat Smullen as being “the person who gives his whole life to the job to the best of his ability,” before adding, “no distractions. Great professionalism. I don't know how they do it. I've had my quirks. Pat has had his tractors.”

PM: Oisin is not alone in that a lot of supremely talented people, be that riders, footballers, musicians, actors, whatever, seem to have a bit of a kink. My father certainly had one. He was incredibly religious. It's about channeling their talent as best they can. Sheikh Fahad, David Redvers and Andrew Balding, they've all been unbelievably patient with him and he's got a great support team. It's up to him now to make the most of it.

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